3.0 in Spider, No Spark - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
 
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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-06-2019, 01:31 PM Thread Starter
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3.0 in Spider, No Spark

Hi all, I'm needing help here. I'm trying the Initial start-up, of a 3.0ltr, 92 164 Engine, transplanted into a 84' Spider. I've immediately found I have No Spark, at the plugs? I have 12V at the Pos. Coil Post. I have checked for resistance at the Crank Position Sensor and also find, (Low not 12 Volts), on the Power Prong on the CPS, incoming. Is that my problem?
Also, I have these two wires, on the original 164 Motronic Harness, a Brown and a Blue with red stripe. What are these and do I need them connected?
I have not even begun checking for fuel pressure or Fuel Pump Operation. I'm pretty good at most of these tasks, but the Motronic Electrical, is most frustrating for me. Thanks, Bob Lesher in Oregon
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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-10-2019, 10:11 AM
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questions,
has the car ever fired?
are you using motronic?
what's going on with the intake plenum (s) looks weird are you equalizing pressure?

164LS 1994
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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-10-2019, 04:20 PM
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Blue/red and brown wires don't seem to be your problem, according to this M4.1 motronic chart #17 = diag lamp and #13 = eng. temp (or #34 = evap purge); but I'm confused as your wires seem to be same length meaning they plug into their respective mates in the same vicinity.
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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-11-2019, 09:58 AM Thread Starter
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related questions above

Yes, I am using the original "Motronic" System, with the original 164 "Motronic" Wiring Harness, (just re-routed, to accommodate the "In-line- FWD, Spider configuration). And No, this project is just finishing and has not been "Fired", which is exactly what I'm trying to do now. BTW, after talking "Alfisti Steve", I have ordered a new Crank Position Sensor, even thou it check-out good), for lack of any better idea's, as it is agreed that the Crank Pos. Sensor, is what the ECU, system gets it's signal from, in order the resend the Coil the Correct Signal. I have also, "re-checked" the Coil for it's Respective, Correct Values. I'm sure, it some point we will stumble onto this problem.
Thank you all for your interest and advise, I am currently on hold no until I receive the new CPS, but can't wait to drive this thing. Bob Lesher, frustrated in Oregon

“One must keep working continuously; otherwise, one thinks of death.”
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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-11-2019, 10:10 AM Thread Starter
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Also, the above ECU Wiring pin list is Incorrect for a 164, (probably for a Spider, as it's wire color ID's are incorrect and also has a VVT wire listed, (164's have no VVT). Bob

“One must keep working continuously; otherwise, one thinks of death.”
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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-11-2019, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1alfanatic View Post
Also, the above ECU Wiring pin list is Incorrect for a 164, (probably for a Spider, as it's wire color ID's are incorrect and also has a VVT wire listed, (164's have no VVT). Bob
Maybe be for a twin spark 75 and 164 euro models.

Ciao, Alfisto Steve
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Alfa Semi-Daily driver: USA model - BB2 1991 164S Black Beauty II ALFISTO [U]

[U] BB1 1991 164L w/S engine and A/T now excess to inventory [U]

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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-11-2019, 10:42 AM
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You (and Steve) are right, I just checked my source from that pinout and it's for a 75. Will keep looking.

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Also, the above ECU Wiring pin list is Incorrect for a 164, (probably for a Spider, as it's wire color ID's are incorrect and also has a VVT wire listed, (164's have no VVT). Bob

white '92 164 S (71K)
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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-11-2019, 03:07 PM
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Also, I have these two wires, on the original 164 Motronic Harness, a Brown and a Blue with red stripe. What are these and do I need them connected?
Thanks, Bob Lesher in Oregon
I am thinking those two wires are for the M15 evaporation solenoid valve on carbon cannister. Wiring diagram refers to that "brown" wire as hazel.

Ciao, Alfisto Steve
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Alfa Semi-Daily driver: USA model - BB2 1991 164S Black Beauty II ALFISTO [U]

[U] BB1 1991 164L w/S engine and A/T now excess to inventory [U]

Daily driver and parts hauler but not car hauler 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4.7L H.O. V-8

"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"
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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-11-2019, 03:45 PM
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Yes, indeed, the wire colors for the 164 are different, here is my best shot. As far as your "spare" wires are concerned, brown can only be engine temp sensor or evap. purge valve, and the blue-red red diagnostic lamp T2, pin 1. Too bad we can't figure out why you can't get spark!
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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-11-2019, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
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Also, I have these two wires, on the original 164 Motronic Harness, a Brown and a Blue with red stripe. What are these and do I need them connected?
I concur with Steve on this one: checking the 164 Motronic diagram, there seems to be two wires colored blu-red and brown(or hazel, as called in the wiring diagram) heading for the evaporation solenoid valve.

Whether you have such a thingie on your Spider, is beyond me.
However, shorting these or leaving open will probably lead to error codes.

Carl Michael Skog, Fagersta, Sweden
1992 164 QV (First sold in Germany)
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post #11 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-11-2019, 07:23 PM
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OK, humor me here.

I am assuming you have 91 164 motronic wiring diagram so:

1. With red stripe relay removed do you have 12v in pin socket 30 RED wire from HOT at all times battery?

2. Do you also have Hot from battery at all times a red wire going to pin 18 in S11 Motronic ECU big long connector at ECU?

3. With red stripe relay installed and key on do you have 12v and fuel pump relay removed do you have 12v at pin socket 86 red wire from red stripe relay and orange wire at Idle actuator in a intake plenum whichever one has idle actuator in it?

4. Also with key on and red stripe relay installed you should have 12v at anyone of the six injector connectors red wire.

Do you have for the Bosch injector connector NOID test wafer? If so install it in one of the injector connectors and with key on it should be lite.


Do you have an inductive timing light you can clamp on coil wire or sparkplug wire?

Ciao, Alfisto Steve
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Alfa Semi-Daily driver: USA model - BB2 1991 164S Black Beauty II ALFISTO [U]

[U] BB1 1991 164L w/S engine and A/T now excess to inventory [U]

Daily driver and parts hauler but not car hauler 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4.7L H.O. V-8

"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"

Last edited by Alfisto Steve; 07-11-2019 at 07:29 PM.
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post #12 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-12-2019, 08:57 AM Thread Starter
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Hi Steve, re: question #3, Fuel pump Relay, Pin 86 is a Gray/ Black Wire, (not Red), the Red wire is Pin 85? Bob

“One must keep working continuously; otherwise, one thinks of death.”
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post #13 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-12-2019, 09:23 AM Thread Starter
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I have just compared with another wiring harness, again, pin 85 is red, pin 86 gray and black. Whats going on here? Bob

“One must keep working continuously; otherwise, one thinks of death.”
Enzo Ferrari
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post #14 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-12-2019, 09:27 AM
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Hi Steve, re: question #3, Fuel pump Relay, Pin 86 is a Gray/ Black Wire, (not Red), the Red wire is Pin 85? Bob
Usually pin 86 always (and according to wiring diagram) the fuel relay coil power source and is red wire from red-strip relay pin 87.

Always an exception to every rule I guess.

Maybe pin 85 is power from red red-strip relay wire and 86 is ecu ground probably would work either way.

Pin 85 is gray-black relay coil ground wire coming from Motronic S11 ECU computer to turn on fuel pump when ECU gets signal from crank sensor.

Pin 30 is pink wire from ignition switch via F22 fuse in 164 fuse box or whatever from your spider wiring from key.


two wires on pins 87/87a one is pink-white to fuel pump and orange-black goes to 164 Q2 sensor heater power.

Ciao, Alfisto Steve
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Alfa Semi-Daily driver: USA model - BB2 1991 164S Black Beauty II ALFISTO [U]

[U] BB1 1991 164L w/S engine and A/T now excess to inventory [U]

Daily driver and parts hauler but not car hauler 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4.7L H.O. V-8

"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"

Last edited by Alfisto Steve; 07-12-2019 at 09:30 AM.
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