'95 LS, bad gas, how to drain. - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #1 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-29-2019, 08:43 PM Thread Starter
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'95 LS, bad gas, how to drain.

I picked up a tank of bad gas. I've been trying to drain it.

I bought a siphon kit, but I can't get the hose to make it to the tank. The 164 has a bit of a winding road of a fuel filling system. After spending more time than I like to admit, pushing, turning and twisting the hose, I admitted defeated and looked for a different way to drain the fuel.

I pulled the filter, and the pump would push fuel out once I turned the key...but it also engaged the starter and turned the engine. Which will eventually run down the battery. I think I have 10 gallons that I need to get rid of as I'm at 1/2 a tank.

Is there a way to trigger the pump without engaging the starter? Yes, I know I probably can find the manual and try to figure it out, but wiring isn't my strong suit, and I really need to get this done tomorrow.

Any help would be appreciated.

Bob

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post #2 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-29-2019, 09:02 PM
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yep. Jumper the fuel pump relay.
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post #3 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-29-2019, 09:03 PM
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Jump the fuel pump relay and drain some fuel from the fuel rail. It's late but I can have more details tomorrow.
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post #4 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-29-2019, 09:13 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfissimo Int. View Post
Jump the fuel pump relay and drain some fuel from the fuel rail. It's late but I can have more details tomorrow.
No problem, I can wait. Thanks.

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post #5 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-29-2019, 10:01 PM
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Sure it is bad gas? How does the car run?

Remember those power modules I told you about? When we were driving the LS in Cal one year, we gassed the car up and it started to run poorly not long after, missing and bucking some of the time. I thought it was bad gas, but really, bad gas these days is pretty darn rare. Quite frankly, I've never had a problem in any of our Alfas I could realistically attribute to "bad gas". It was always something else. Also, accidentally putting in lower octane gas will not hurt things if the car is driven sanely, as that engine has knock sensors to protect the engine, at least to an extent.

Turns out for our car, it was dirty connections at those power modules, not bad gas at all. Once the connections were cleaned and protected with dielectric grease, all has been fine since then. Did actually have a power module fail on the car, but Bob "goats" kindly sent me another, and it works just fine (thanks again, Bob). You can also buy those same modules on eBay, used in certain Volvos, for ~$20. I bought one, tried it, and it works fine, but I use the one Bob gave me, the other is a glove box spare, lol.

Check those connectors, cleaning and protecting them, and see if that will cure whatever ills the car may seem to have. Also, be sure to run a fuel injector cleaner such as Techron to avoid any problems in the fuel system. Using something like that, I've never had injector problems in any FI Alfa I've owned, even after 150+k miles.

BTW, if the fuel gauge reads about 1/2 full, the tank is really likely to be no more than 1/3 full, based on what the gauge reads in our LS. The 91S gauge is the same way. If the gauge reads 1/2 full, I end up putting in 10+ gallons, realistic max being ~15 1/2 gal.

Another thing to think about is which plugs are you using. Should be the NGK Iridiums for best results, IMO.
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Last edited by Del; 06-29-2019 at 10:22 PM.
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post #6 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-29-2019, 10:31 PM
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does it idle roughly and smooth out over 3000 rpm?

Modules definitely a good place to start
if cleaning them does not cure problem, perhaps you could try this:

One module if for front bank, one module for rear bank
Unplug one of the modules, so car is running on one bank. At this point it may run or stall.
unplug first module and reconnect second module so car runs on the other bank,
Does it run better on one bank than the other?
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post #7 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-29-2019, 10:33 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Del View Post
Sure it is bad gas? How does the car run?
In my mind, there were only two things that changed, I got gas, and I dropped to the central valley floor, where it was warmer. But I'm not sure it's gas.

It started happening right after I filled up, got progressively worse. 100 miles after I noticed the symptoms, I pulled off the freeway and it died...restarted, died again. I had to keep it over 3000 rpm in order to get the last 20 miles home.

I will take the time to pull those connections, clean and grease them. I do have another LS that I'll be using as the parts car, so I have parts available to me. I thought I'd eliminate the possibility of bad gas, right at the start of trouble shooting. The potential problem of the valley heat causing the problem was eliminated as the symptoms were still there when I started it in the morning cool.

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post #8 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-29-2019, 10:58 PM
Del
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If it is the connections, the problem may be caused by them being dirty and the change in temperature making things worse from then on.

I hope it is just the connectors. However, the other important connection to clean and protect is the multiwire connector to the air flow meter.

What fault code do you get when you turn the key to the run position without starting the car, and then pushing the gas pedal to the floor five times quickly? The check engine light will start flashing. First it will flash just once. Then, it will start to flash the code. Then it will flash just once more before it starts the routine again.

Example: If it is the AFM connector it will give a 1221 code. We just had this happen that afternoon after we had met you all. Had to clean that connection, as the engine wouldn't keep running at idle, would die instead. The cleaning and protection did the job.

Del

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1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

Last edited by Del; 06-29-2019 at 11:29 PM.
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post #9 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-30-2019, 05:44 AM
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Pull fuel pump relay (the non-red stripe one) on top radiator support. Jumper pin socket 30 pink wire to pin socket 87 pin-white wire. turn on key pump should run.

Good luck.

I'll tell my very own tale of woe maybe later in the day.

Ciao, Alfisto Steve
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post #10 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-30-2019, 07:48 AM
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Change fuel filter while you are at it.


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post #11 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-30-2019, 09:24 AM Thread Starter
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Fuel filter ordered. Will be in this afternoon.

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post #12 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-30-2019, 10:14 AM
Del
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Keep us posted, and remember to properly make only one change or fix at a time, so that you end up knowing which fix did the trick. Important knowledge for the future. Doing multiple fixes at the same time cannot tell you that.
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Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

Last edited by Del; 06-30-2019 at 12:09 PM.
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post #13 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-30-2019, 10:24 AM Thread Starter
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This 164 group never ceases to amaze me. With decent search techniques it all seems to be researched.

To wit, this relay post:

https://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/8279454-post2.html

Everything is there. Thanks again for the hard work and the documentation.

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You didn't...oh yes I did. '73 Berlina graduate course in rust repair. No thread yet, don't want to piss off the GTV

You didn't...oh yes I did II. 1995 164LS 5 speed, awesome when it runs!!!

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post #14 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-30-2019, 11:54 AM Thread Starter
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Well, that was an interesting hour. Relay was in the wrong place, and the wiring was different than posted.

The relays were behind a cover.
The reddish relay should have been the fuel relay...it wasn't. Hopefully nothing electronic was hurt when I plugged in the jumper and turned the key. No smoke, so let's hope.
I finally pulled out the sockets themselves, looking for the pink wire and pink and white wire. There were no such things coming from the "fuel relay socket."
So I moved to the second socket, found pink, pink and white, and two pink and black with different gauges. I went pink to pink and white...no joy. I then looked at the relay and noticed that the 30 to 87 was pink to pink and black. So I plugged that in...yeah, gas gushing.

Let's hope I didn't fry anything.

I'm this close to buying a new "roller skate" with a warranty...

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You didn't...oh yes I did. '73 Berlina graduate course in rust repair. No thread yet, don't want to piss off the GTV

You didn't...oh yes I did II. 1995 164LS 5 speed, awesome when it runs!!!

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post #15 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-30-2019, 12:12 PM
Del
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I would not bother with that bad gas idea stuff at first, but clean all the electrical connections. Do the simple stuff first.

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

Last edited by Del; 06-30-2019 at 01:22 PM.
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