'95 LS, bad gas, how to drain. - Page 4 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #46 of 59 (permalink) Old 07-19-2019, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by horsewidower View Post
I was afraid that's what you meant. That can only be accomplished by opening the patient up, correct? I've got cam locks. If I need to do that, I might as well go ahead and do a belt change.

Unless...there is an easy way to check that I'm unaware of.
If you have marks on the camshaft pulley's you can pull timing covers, bring motor to TDC and check marks. I'd check timing for sure. My #1 thing is to always confirm timing when all of sudden there are problems as you described. I bet it jumped a tooth or two on start up after fueling up.


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post #47 of 59 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 01:18 PM Thread Starter
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Tried starting it today in order to move it into the workshop. Pretty clear that it’s timing.

I’ll get all the parts together for a timing belt change and start a different thread...or tag on to one that already exists.

I even washed and cleaned it to try and coax it to feel better.


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post #48 of 59 (permalink) Old 07-28-2019, 07:29 PM
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" Pretty clear that it’s timing"

What caused you to decide this, just so I would know the associated symptoms.

Del

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1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

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post #49 of 59 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 11:32 AM Thread Starter
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Del, it's an assumption on my part, coupled with a degree of caution.

I had planned to drive it up to the closest gas station and fill it up, thereby diluting any remaining bad gas remnants. Unfortunately, initially it wouldn't start, and then when it finally did, it was so rough that it wouldn't idle. Both symptoms were far worse than when I last drove it around the block. It was acting very much like my 12v with a skipped cam belt.

Given that I was going to do a T-belt on it this fall, and, due to the current issues, was at a minimum needing to check the timing, I shut the car off and will push it into the workshop for a full review. I don't want to start it, again, until the valve timing has been dealt with. I really don't want to have to deal with bent valves, although I have another 24v in the boneyard if it becomes necessary to swap heads.

I'll review the maintenance records for when the last water pump was done, and decide whether or not to do it at the same time.

My current plan is to do the job during the labor day week. I plan to take that week off, and so I'll have this month to gather all the necessary tools, parts and supplies. I have a set of cam blocks...but have to remember where I stored them. Probably in a "special place" where I could find them...which invariably means I can't find them.

Last decision to make: engine in, or engine out. The AC works fantastic, so I really don't want to pull that system apart in order to drop the engine. However, the ease of working on the engine out is also a big factor.

Last item: I know why the car came with a new master clutch and slave cylinder...so I"ll do that work at the same time. The first time I pushed the clutch to the floor, and it stuck, was bewildering. I held up a bunch of people in a parking lot as I figured out what to do. All of them were gracious enough not to lean on their horns.

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post #50 of 59 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 11:44 AM
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Did you check the condition of the plugs, and whether or not all are getting spark? It is possible that one of the two ignition modules is not functioning properly, as I had happen with my LS. I suggest checking this before you do a timing belt change, unless you don't have the history of the timing belt in hand.

I would just get a new module, and try replacing a module one at a time. Super easy. Do the simple stuff first.

I found which plugs were not getting spark, was just a front one, this after cleaning the module connectors, and then switched the connectors on the modules and then checked again for spark. Turns out that the front plug which had not been producing spark now did, telling me that a module which had served the front plugs was acting up. Replaced that module and all ended up fine. Granted, checking the rear plugs is not as simple.

The modules are available on eBay as for a certain Volvo:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Ignitio...7443f77a638002

Can't beat the price.

I tried one and it works fine, and I keep it as a spare, having been given a used OE Bosch module by a very nice/generous BBer.

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1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
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previously owned since 1964:

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post #51 of 59 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 11:56 AM
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post #52 of 59 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 12:29 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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I suggest checking this before you do a timing belt change, unless you don't have the history of the timing belt in hand.
Current timing belt has 40K on it.

I'll pick up a couple of those modules, they are cheap!

Thanks for the help.

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post #53 of 59 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 01:02 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you for that. Between you and Del, I am reminded to not jump to conclusions and do a methodical diagnostic.

Just an interesting note, and one that may be telling as to how quickly I jump to looking at the wiring harness, all 6 coils were changed about 18 months to two years ago (at a cost of over $1,000 ) and there is an interesting cam cover standoff solution that was done to give the front coils some breathing room. Looking back at the maintenance records, rough running and coil changes were frequent.

However, just to be safe, I'll check valve timing first.

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post #54 of 59 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 01:36 PM
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Could it be an airleak? Have you checked the main intake hose, from air-filter to throttle body, inlet runner boots or around the idle control valve? Mine split underneath so was impossible to see with a casual glance. An air leak is going to make a more significant difference at low revs/throttle as the leak is more significant in terms of total airflow. A lot less work to check these than cambelt check - although a cambelt check is never a bad thing on an Alfa V6.
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post #55 of 59 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 01:50 PM Thread Starter
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Good point, I'll add it to the list.

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post #56 of 59 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 02:34 PM
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"Current timing belt has 40K on it"

The timing belt has 40k miles on it? Ummm, is time for a change I think?

I put 40k miles on the one in my LS before the last change, and Carlo went "tsk, tsk, is just slightly loose, although the belt looks ok otherwise. I don't like going longer".

Still, would be nice to get it running nicely before doing that I think.

You haven't checked the integrity of the corrugated intake hose? One of the simple things people are recommending. Wave an unlit propane torch around the running engine. If it revs up, you have an air leak. Found one in my LS this way, was a small disconnected cruise control hose which was leaking air downstream of the AFM.

You need to make a paper list of the simple checks they have recommended, and then check them off one by one before doing anything else.

However, having said that, it does look like you will have a timing belt change coming up sooner or later anyway. Or was it really the serpentine belt instead? In that case, no biggie.

Keep at it, you will get there.

BTW, have never had a plug ignition coil fail or act up, AFAICT. My suspicion is that perhaps it was something else making it look like the coils were failing. Maybe ignition modules acting up instead?
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Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

Last edited by Del; 07-29-2019 at 02:42 PM.
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post #57 of 59 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 03:13 PM Thread Starter
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I've got a big white board in the workshop, I bet I fill it up with all the diagnostic tests to do. All good suggestions.

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post #58 of 59 (permalink) Old 07-29-2019, 04:25 PM
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There you go. Have to be systematic about these darn things, lol. Most of the initial checks are pretty fast and straightforward.

I try to make up an error tree, partly from what is at the ends of the various chapters of the workshop manual. They do a lot of, try this, and if that doesn't work, go to the next step. Of course, sometimes you have to try to figure out just what the heck they are talking about, lol. Their drawings and the parts eper really help.

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
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post #59 of 59 (permalink) Old 07-30-2019, 11:11 AM Thread Starter
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Don't mind me, just gathering info:

https://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/7971194-post14.html
https://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/260025-post1.html
https://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/164...ming-belt.html
https://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/4799881-post2.html

Everyday is a school day. Learning something new all the time

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You're kidding, another one?! 1984 GTV6 Maratona
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You didn't...oh yes I did. '73 Berlina graduate course in rust repair. No thread yet, don't want to piss off the GTV

You didn't...oh yes I did II. 1995 164LS 5 speed, awesome when it runs!!!

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Last edited by horsewidower; 07-30-2019 at 11:22 AM.
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