'95 LS, bad gas, how to drain. - Page 2 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #16 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-30-2019, 01:07 PM Thread Starter
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I would not bother with that bad gas stuff at first, but clean all the electrical connections. Do the simple stuff first.
Now you tell me. LOL

Finally got a gusher, about 8 gallons out. Down to the low fuel light on.

Filter should be available in about an hour. Then I'll fill it with 5 gallons of new premium California piss water, then test drive it down to the gas station to fill it up. If it is still exhibiting the issue, I'll move on to other things...well look at it this way, I have $32 dollars worth of new parts cleaning solvent.

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You're kidding, another one?! 1984 GTV6 Maratona
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You didn't...oh yes I did. '73 Berlina graduate course in rust repair. No thread yet, don't want to piss off the GTV

You didn't...oh yes I did II. 1995 164LS 5 speed, awesome when it runs!!!

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post #17 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-30-2019, 04:39 PM Thread Starter
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My get up and go, got up and went. McParts store was supposed to call when the filter came in, I finally called them at 2:00 to see if it was there. By the time I went to the store and back it was 3:30. One of the disadvantages to living in the sticks.

With the kids (geez how did they get to 29 and 27) coming over for ribs, I had to clean off the porch, fill in a sewer line ditch and rearrange a bunch of furniture.

I've got another 45 minutes to see if I can make lemonade out of lemons, I'll report back later.

Bob

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You didn't...oh yes I did. '73 Berlina graduate course in rust repair. No thread yet, don't want to piss off the GTV

You didn't...oh yes I did II. 1995 164LS 5 speed, awesome when it runs!!!

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post #18 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-30-2019, 04:44 PM
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Check fuel pressure. tee the gauge in off the fuel rail.

74 GTV with 10548's and Ingram pump
71 Spider 1750 BOMBER ; 1995 LS 78K tight fast car
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post #19 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-30-2019, 06:26 PM Thread Starter
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Yes,,,Yes, yes, yes......



Oh NOOOOOOOOOOOOO (use your best Mr. Bill voice)


Not bad gas (I got an I told you so coming, Del).


And the Lovely Donna uttered a few horrid sentences upon finding out the new fuel filter didn't fit (some house brand, but you take what you can get on a Sunday afternoon.) Something to the order of (given that it was a traumatic experience I think my brain shut down so it's not exact) "You need to quit playing with these cars, they never have the right parts and they don't work...Perhaps it's time to consider something reliable." Not quite grounds for divorce, but...

I did look at the Hyundai ads, something about a 10 year, 100,000 mile warranty is appealing.

ARRRRGGGGHHHHH.

On to the next thread on ignition issues, after I check fuel pressure. However, the problem is at idle and low speed, runs like a gazelle at high rpm.
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You're kidding, another one?! 1984 GTV6 Maratona
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You didn't...oh yes I did. '73 Berlina graduate course in rust repair. No thread yet, don't want to piss off the GTV

You didn't...oh yes I did II. 1995 164LS 5 speed, awesome when it runs!!!

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post #20 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-30-2019, 07:14 PM
Del
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Maybe your problem is playing with too many at the same time, lol.

Did you run the fault code process that the car has? I described it, and you need to run it. Do it now. Report back. As an example, when my LS started running funny a couple of days ago, it would run great at cruise rpm but tend to die at idle. The code I got was 1221, so I checked/cleaned the wiring connection to the AFM and that fixed it.

Don't worry about the supposed problems, as usually it takes some thinking about Occam's Razor to find the problem. The basic LS power train is pretty bullet proof if someone didn't screw with it instead of keeping it stock, adjusted, and clean. Do the simple stuff first to get it out of the way. OBTW, do check the corrugated rubber intake hose for cracks or splits, etc.

Carlo always used to say that sometimes it is just some stupid simple thing. He thought too many owners tended to get carried away trying all sorts of shotgun guesses.

Clean the electrical contacts. Then start thinking about about more involved causes. The workshop manual does have diagnostic listing sections for engine problems as well. Peruse those.
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1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

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post #21 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-30-2019, 07:49 PM
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If the car doesn’t idle, and you say it runs fast and strong at high rpm, then I’d be looking at timing , idle controller, and air leaks in that order. Will the car actually idle? Checking your spark plugs is a good diagnostic test. Do you hear any Snap-snap sounds? Keep doing diagnostic work until you think you have a root cause. No codes flashed? Check to make sure the self diag is working— turn to run, stomp hard all the way to the floor 5 times in 4 seconds, and watch the CEL light.... u should get 4-4-4-4
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post #22 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-30-2019, 08:13 PM
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typically bad idle and good running above 3000 is a good indication that one bank is not firing. hence my attempt at suggesting that the banks be isolated to determine which one. in all likelyhood, the front bank will be fine rear bank will run rough, indicating timing belt slip. The other possibility, throttle position sensor, and the 3000k rpm is just a byproduct of pressing the throttle. . Does it have full power over 3000? Or is it down on power?

164LS 1994
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post #23 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-30-2019, 08:20 PM
Del
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"typically bad idle and good running above 3000 is a good indication that one bank is not firing"

Take my word for it, if one bank is not firing, it won't run well at any rpm, since that is three cylinders dead. Been there, done that, when the one power module quit in my LS.

Hopefully he will get the simple stuff done before he dives into timing, idle controller, etc.

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

Last edited by Del; 06-30-2019 at 08:26 PM.
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post #24 of 59 (permalink) Old 07-01-2019, 05:31 AM
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We are marked by our experiences and swear by them, in my case it would run on the front bank but lope and stall on rear bank. it would run better over 3000 and could actually be driven. Repeatable as I went back and forth to the garage and they could not figure it out. It was my intro to the 24 valve, so won't forget the learning curve. it had jumped 2 teeth maybe 3 on the rear bank exhaust cam. Based on my experience, given the description of the symptoms, I would want to eliminate belt slip asap. In so doing, one would necessarily confirm Modules were good, clean, and connections good.

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post #25 of 59 (permalink) Old 07-01-2019, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Del View Post
Maybe your problem is playing with too many at the same time, lol.

Did you run the fault code process that the car has? I described it, and you need to run it. Do it now. Report back. As an example, when my LS started running funny a couple of days ago, it would run great at cruise rpm but tend to die at idle. The code I got was 1221, so I checked/cleaned the wiring connection to the AFM and that fixed it.

Don't worry about the supposed problems, as usually it takes some thinking about Occam's Razor to find the problem. The basic LS power train is pretty bullet proof if someone didn't screw with it instead of keeping it stock, adjusted, and clean. Do the simple stuff first to get it out of the way. OBTW, do check the corrugated rubber intake hose for cracks or splits, etc.

Carlo always used to say that sometimes it is just some stupid simple thing. He thought too many owners tended to get carried away trying all sorts of shotgun guesses.

Clean the electrical contacts. Then start thinking about about more involved causes. The workshop manual does have diagnostic listing sections for engine problems as well. Peruse those.


This is it: "Carlo always used to say that sometimes it is just some stupid simple thing. He thought too many owners tended to get carried away trying all sorts of shotgun guesses."

Your symptoms are making me think timing. The idea of bad gas is slim. The fact that it happened right after start up after getting new fuel made it seem like the fuel. It can't be fuel now that I think about it more. If bad fuel, the filter is the first thing to change but every time I have had 164 owners tell me they changed the F- filter thinking bad gas or debris clogged up the filter, that never cleared the problem. I bet it jumped a tooth on start up as that is when they always tend to jump.


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post #26 of 59 (permalink) Old 07-01-2019, 09:21 AM
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See post 21.

I try myself, with my fleet, to always diagnose first, then fix. This is the only way to truly learn about the nature of mechanical things. Now granted, there are some things that cant be readily diagnosed -- and a swapola or a 'quick fix' attempt is warranted. But, thats 10% of the case -- the other 90 are truly diagnosable with patience, and the right tools (of course). And, diagnosis costs ZERO dollars - it does cost some time, but in the end, it actually saves time since you eventually get to the true root cause--

Smell the exhaust. Does it smell 'normal'? Is the idle lumpy?

It would be nice to be able to verify timing using a method thats not so involved as pulling the belt covers off/the valve covers. But alas I know of no such method.
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post #27 of 59 (permalink) Old 07-01-2019, 09:54 AM
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working on it...….but before that, please correct me if I get this wrong. every time this scenario comes up, there is a lot of to and fro; check fuel pressure, dirty gas, vacuum leaks etc etc. I don't know what..
In the example , the symptoms are clear, rough idle, smooths out above 3000, will run with diminished power. Ok if that is the case, then:

take out the Air cleaner box, disconnect the modules, clean them, and re connect, try again. IF result is the same, THEN disconnect one module try again, THEN disconnect the other module, try again. IF one bank runs better than another, THEN switch Modules. IF problem shifts to other bank, THEN, module is at fault. IF problems still effects the same bank, THEN module probably not at fault. In more case than not, as stated so many times in these chats, it is the rear bank that goes off kilter. when does this happen. Again this is my take on reading the chats.....after a long layoff, after a recent belt change. On start up, cause that's maximum load. Cars in regular use tend not to have this problem.
it would take less than 30minutes to confirm Modules are OK and timing may be off.

164LS 1994

Last edited by Luigim; 07-01-2019 at 10:28 AM.
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post #28 of 59 (permalink) Old 07-01-2019, 10:27 AM
Del
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Still waiting for the results of doing the fault check, and cleaning the electrical connections. All this other handwringing should come after the above, not now as suggested by some. But then again, just my feeling, based on my own experiences with my LS.

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
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post #29 of 59 (permalink) Old 07-01-2019, 02:12 PM Thread Starter
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I'll be working through it methodically. Unfortunately, I ran out of time yesterday, and (gasp!) had to go to work today. Tonight, if I have time, I'll clean the connectors to the ignition modules. I'll also search around for the fuel pressure tester...it might still be hooked up to the '91S. I have someone coming over tomorrow to look at taking that vehicle off my hands. Serves their purposes, and also mine.

Unfortunately, this will all take a back seat to getting the Powerstroke diesel R&R'd this holiday. Work vehicles for the Lovely Donna come first.

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But wait there's more: View my 164LS thread, now parts car status:
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You're kidding, another one?! 1984 GTV6 Maratona
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You didn't...oh yes I did. '73 Berlina graduate course in rust repair. No thread yet, don't want to piss off the GTV

You didn't...oh yes I did II. 1995 164LS 5 speed, awesome when it runs!!!

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post #30 of 59 (permalink) Old 07-01-2019, 06:19 PM
Del
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Have you run the diagnostic check yet? Takes only about 5 minutes to run it twice. Don't even have to start the engine, lol. Should have been the very first thing you would do with this car.

Be sure to clean, and then use dielectric grease on, the multiwire connector to the AFM as well as the module connections. That was what caused the similar symptoms I had later in the day after I had lunch with you. Also, takes only a couple of minutes for everything.

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
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