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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-20-2019, 03:11 AM Thread Starter
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BB2 back in the Alfa related news

This is gonna be called The Disappearing Brake Fluid Caper me thinks. Before I went to Neville's Under the Might Oaks event in Jax end of April I had to top off the vital fluids especially the brake fluid.

Fast forward to Cars and Coffee Lakeland first Saturday in May I started getting the dreaded two red brake icons on the dash cluster. Had ML help me verify I had brake lights when I got home.

Needed to back out BB2 Saturday or so I thought the past Saturday. BATTERY DEAD. Put charger on as voltage down to 6.3 volts. Tried the desulfate process using charger overnight. It did not work got a Code F03 for shorted cell.

Put in New Type 27F battery from Sam's as their Type 31s were for Marine and RV deep cycle usage. As soon as I hooked battery cables to new battery THE BRAKE LIGHTS CAME ON BRIGHT!

Pumped the brake pedal lights went out. Turned on key pumped pedal two red icon came on again but now no brake lights with pedal pushed.

Here is my now LATEST investigative report:
1. brake fluid low again.
2. Brake light switch soaked with fluid.
3. Floor mat soaked
4. Clutch master cylinder sock and jock strap cup DRY.

Looks like I either have a leaking shaft seal in clutch master which is in front of area covered by sock and cup or I have a leaking brake master shaft seal into brake booster.

Since brake light switch to right of clutch master and booster over top of switch I am confused. Can't tell at this point when the fluid coming from.

I did just hook up a new brake light switch and test brake lights and they lights work with plunger extended and for off when depressed in and no icons come on.

I discovered brake fluid in floor mat is odorless.

Stay tuned as both the clutch and brake master cylinders were installed NEW in early 2012 when BB2 was rehabbed.

Lucky me "maybe" I have one of each in my spares so now to determine which one is leaking and then to find the new one(s) somewhere in all the boxes I moved south.
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Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA
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Alfa Semi-Daily driver: USA model - BB2 1991 164S Black Beauty II ALFISTO [U]

[U] BB1 1991 164L w/S engine and A/T now excess to inventory [U]

Daily driver and parts hauler but not car hauler 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4.7L H.O. V-8

"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"

Last edited by Alfisto Steve; 05-20-2019 at 05:37 AM.
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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-20-2019, 07:49 AM
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I would not say "lucky" but at least you have some spares. Not fun repair. Even at my young age getting under the dash is a pain in the back! How old was the MC that was installed?


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1991 White Alfa Romeo 164S Recaro, Siena, Zender.-GONE
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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-20-2019, 08:07 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Alfissimo Int. View Post
I would not say "lucky" but at least you have some spares. Not fun repair. Even at my young age getting under the dash is a pain in the back! How old was the MC that was installed?
I have no idea but know for sure both are now at least 7 years plus the unknown self life.

The last 7 years have just flown by I know that for a fact.

If clutch master the leaker then the driver's seat will come out I know that.


If brake master the culprit I will be using my Mighty Vac sucker outer on brake booster.


Now what do I use on the floormat? Maybe brake kleen aerosol spray and shop vac.

Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA
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Alfa Semi-Daily driver: USA model - BB2 1991 164S Black Beauty II ALFISTO [U]

[U] BB1 1991 164L w/S engine and A/T now excess to inventory [U]

Daily driver and parts hauler but not car hauler 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4.7L H.O. V-8

"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"
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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-20-2019, 10:09 AM
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first reaction is. not lucky and definitely not fun. If problem is loss of fluid and lights, what leads you think of Clutch, proximity?

164LS 1994
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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-20-2019, 10:51 AM
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I probably use some sponges/paper shop towels to sop up when you can, then some detergent and water to try get the rest. Not sure what brake cleaner spray will do to carpet color.

John Stewart
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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-20-2019, 03:49 PM Thread Starter
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OK found leaks and new parts today

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisto Steve View Post
This is gonna be called The Disappearing Brake Fluid Caper me thinks. Before I went to Neville's Under the Might Oaks event in Jax end of April I had to top off the vital fluids especially the brake fluid.

Fast forward to Cars and Coffee Lakeland first Saturday in May I started getting the dreaded two red brake icons on the dash cluster. Had ML help me verify I had brake lights when I got home.

Needed to back out BB2 Saturday or so I thought the past Saturday. BATTERY DEAD. Put charger on as voltage down to 6.3 volts. Tried the desulfate process using charger overnight. It did not work got a Code F03 for shorted cell.

Put in New Type 27F battery from Sam's as their Type 31s were for Marine and RV deep cycle usage. As soon as I hooked battery cables to new battery THE BRAKE LIGHTS CAME ON BRIGHT!

Pumped the brake pedal lights went out. Turned on key pumped pedal two red icon came on again but now no brake lights with pedal pushed.

Here is my now LATEST investigative report:
1. brake fluid low again.
2. Brake light switch soaked with fluid.
3. Floor mat soaked
4. Clutch master cylinder sock and jock strap cup DRY.

Looks like I either have a leaking shaft seal in clutch master which is in front of area covered by sock and cup or I have a leaking brake master shaft seal into brake booster.

Since brake light switch to right of clutch master and booster over top of switch I am confused. Can't tell at this point when the fluid coming from.

I did just hook up a new brake light switch and test brake lights and they lights work with plunger extended and for off when depressed in and no icons come on.

I discovered brake fluid in floor mat is odorless.

Stay tuned as both the clutch and brake master cylinders were installed NEW in early 2012 when BB2 was rehabbed.

Lucky me "maybe" I have one of each in my spares so now to determine which one is leaking and then to find the new one(s) somewhere in all the boxes I moved south.

Well, it turns out so far discovered two leaks - both in clutch master cylinder shaft seal and clutch slave cylinder. Slave cylinder leak the fluid still contained inside rubber boot so no fluid had leaked out yet.

Now the clutch master leak the fluid was leaking out cylinder where boot attached and hidden from view but running down front of clutch and brake pedal support bracket. Lots of gooey electrical tape on wires going to brake light switch and cruise control switches and of course floor mat.

I pulled driver's seat, laid down couple old king size pilllows wife had going out in the garbage tomorrow on the carpet floor and put a old kitchen foam floor mat on garage floor. I worked half in and half out of car to pull clutch master. Hardest part was pulling cotter pin from clevis pin. One of the pix shows the tool assortment I used. I first sucked brake reservoir dry below clutch master supply port and then loosened hose from slave and pushed pedal down to empty master cylinder. since slave leaking I pulled it out, too.

I pulled out air cleaner and air flow meter assy in total to gain access to clutch slave.

Took me longer to find the box up on the mezzanine that contained the new parts than it did to pull leaking parts. I had almost given up for the day when I found it and cooling hoses I had set aside to have in FL before we fully moved last shipment I guess. I was almost ready to call Jason if I hadn't found that box when I was looking for our hurricane pack up kit Coleman camping stove. Oh, I found stove next to 164 parts box. Lucky day again here in Paradise South.

Tomorrow is another day to see what I can get done in the morning as I have an eye doc appt. in the afternoon. Oh did I say the ambient temp got to 92F today. I am in my third cleanest dirty tee shirt I could find. A cold Natty Ice at 5.9% alcohol was mighty nice with ML's mighty fine pot roast supper. We rewatched Chariots of Fire as we ate supper in out matching recliners.
.
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Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA
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Alfa Semi-Daily driver: USA model - BB2 1991 164S Black Beauty II ALFISTO [U]

[U] BB1 1991 164L w/S engine and A/T now excess to inventory [U]

Daily driver and parts hauler but not car hauler 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4.7L H.O. V-8

"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"

Last edited by Alfisto Steve; 05-20-2019 at 05:49 PM.
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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-20-2019, 06:00 PM
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well its just as well you are practiced at the art...…..do you have a rebuild kits stashed away?

164LS 1994
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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-20-2019, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisto Steve View Post
Well, it turns out so far discovered two leaks - both in clutch master cylinder shaft seal and clutch slave cylinder. Slave cylinder leak the fluid still contained inside rubber boot so no fluid had leaked out yet.

Now the clutch master leak the fluid was leaking out cylinder where boot attached and hidden from view but running down front of clutch and brake pedal support bracket. Lots of gooey electrical tape on wires going to brake light switch and cruise control switches and of course floor mat.

I pulled driver's seat, laid down couple old king size pilllows wife had going out in the garbage tomorrow on the carpet floor and put a old kitchen foam floor mat on garage floor. I worked half in and half out of car to pull clutch master. Hardest part was pulling cotter pin from clevis pin. One of the pix shows the tool assortment I used. I first sucked brake reservoir dry below clutch master supply port and then loosened hose from slave and pushed pedal down to empty master cylinder. since slave leaking I pulled it out, too.

I pulled out air cleaner and air flow meter assy in total to gain access to clutch slave.

Took me longer to find the box up on the mezzanine that contained the new parts than it did to pull leaking parts. I had almost given up for the day when I found it and cooling hoses I had set aside to have in FL before we fully moved last shipment I guess. I was almost ready to call Jason if I hadn't found that box when I was looking for our hurricane pack up kit Coleman camping stove. Oh, I found stove next to 164 parts box. Lucky day again here in Paradise South.

Tomorrow is another day to see what I can get done in the morning as I have an eye doc appt. in the afternoon. Oh did I say the ambient temp got to 92F today. I am in my third cleanest dirty tee shirt I could find. A cold Natty Ice at 5.9% alcohol was mighty nice with ML's mighty fine pot roast supper. We rewatched Chariots of Fire as we ate supper in out matching recliners.
.
You sure the leak was not you sweating like a stuck pig? hahaha. Glad you found it. Epsom Salt bath is in order.


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San Diego, CA
1989 Spider Quad. Gone
1991 White Alfa Romeo 164S Recaro, Siena, Zender.-GONE
2010 Touareg TDI
2017 Giulia Ti Sport Q4, Trofeo, Leather package(red), 19X8, 19X9.
Alfissimo Int. is online now  
post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-21-2019, 02:48 AM Thread Starter
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well its just as well you are practiced at the art.....do you have a rebuild kits stashed away?
I have rebuild kits for both the 164S 25mm piston slave and 164 clutch master but slave kit I have is only for S model 25mm piston size. Never could find a kit for the more common 23mm piston size.

I believe the slave I took out is the 23mm piston size.

I plan to install the new OEM master and the Bosch slave (which is 25mm size).

I may later try to rebuild old master since I have kit and double check size of old slave.

Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA
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Alfa Semi-Daily driver: USA model - BB2 1991 164S Black Beauty II ALFISTO [U]

[U] BB1 1991 164L w/S engine and A/T now excess to inventory [U]

Daily driver and parts hauler but not car hauler 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4.7L H.O. V-8

"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"
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post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-21-2019, 02:54 AM Thread Starter
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Bath water temp pool swim trick

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfissimo Int. View Post
You sure the leak was not you sweating like a stuck pig? hahaha. Glad you found it. Epsom Salt bath is in order.
No bath only hot shower yesterday. Since I got up early, just now I took a skinny dipping "hot" tub exercise swim in 80F pool water under the cover of darkness with a full moon to limber up for the day ahead.

Another day in Paradise South coming up.

Shower number two and tee shirt number two. I gave up for today. I got clutch master in place but could not get cleviis pin into yoke of master cylinder and clutch pedal pin hole.

I did degrease the floor mat and rinse so will see how that dries out.

After second shower got back in to pool to limber up again.


Clevis pin pretty much has to go in from left side not right side as shown in parts breakdown pix and split pin and washer go on right side of pedal arm. The master cylinder is really located in front of pedal arm not in back as shown in pix,

Stay tuned for continuing saga.
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Ciao, Alfisto Steve
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Alfa Semi-Daily driver: USA model - BB2 1991 164S Black Beauty II ALFISTO [U]

[U] BB1 1991 164L w/S engine and A/T now excess to inventory [U]

Daily driver and parts hauler but not car hauler 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4.7L H.O. V-8

"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"

Last edited by Alfisto Steve; 05-21-2019 at 06:11 PM.
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post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-21-2019, 09:38 AM
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Steve, Last time I changed the clutch master, I ended up super-gluing the clevis pin to the tip of my finger and only then got it into place. Needless to say getting loose from the pin was a careful job. Used the same procedure to put split pin in clevis pin, and then stopped for a cool one.

Definitely not one of my favorite jobs on the Alfa.

I have good evidence that brake fluid takes the color out of the carpet....and leather shoes. What is your source and color to re-spray same? The carpet, that is.

G'Luck. Dennis
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post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-21-2019, 10:24 AM
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Saved yourself about a $500 shop repair.

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post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-21-2019, 12:59 PM Thread Starter
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Steve, Last time I changed the clutch master, I ended up super-gluing the clevis pin to the tip of my finger and only then got it into place. Needless to say getting loose from the pin was a careful job. Used the same procedure to put split pin in clevis pin, and then stopped for a cool one.

Definitely not one of my favorite jobs on the Alfa.

I have good evidence that brake fluid takes the color out of the carpet....and leather shoes. What is your source and color to re-spray same? The carpet, that is.

G'Luck. Dennis
Super glue sounds a bit harsh to me! Part of my problem seems to be the rigid steel pressure line (still unhooked) is routed next to where I need to insert clevis pin and so far haven't been able to move it enough to get pin correctly aligned with holes to slide it in even on a pair of mechanical fingers. I got so wasted and sweat wet i had to quit for the day.

Just got back from eye doc and way yo hot here in the PM to trey again. ML suggests I get a early 5 am start tomorrow.

As for carpet dye I used on BB2 when I rehabbed carpet I used Dupli-Color Vinyl & Fabric rattle can w/flexible finish.

Fluid did not take the color out of my A/R logo floor mat and I think the degreaser soap I used with scrub brush may have removed the fluid. Time will tell how it dries in the FL sunshine.

Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA
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Alfa Semi-Daily driver: USA model - BB2 1991 164S Black Beauty II ALFISTO [U]

[U] BB1 1991 164L w/S engine and A/T now excess to inventory [U]

Daily driver and parts hauler but not car hauler 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4.7L H.O. V-8

"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"

Last edited by Alfisto Steve; 05-21-2019 at 06:05 PM.
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post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-21-2019, 02:19 PM
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I didn't tell you that you can buy - from a model shop - a product called "Un-cure" which will release you from the glued-on clevis pin in about 30 seconds.

Be sure you don't get it in eyes or breathe it in. That will be bad!
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post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-21-2019, 06:16 PM Thread Starter
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Parts diagrams for 164 clutch pedal and hydraulic slave, etc.

The parts diagrams for 164 clutch pedal and hydraulic slave, etc.
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Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA
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Alfa Semi-Daily driver: USA model - BB2 1991 164S Black Beauty II ALFISTO [U]

[U] BB1 1991 164L w/S engine and A/T now excess to inventory [U]

Daily driver and parts hauler but not car hauler 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4.7L H.O. V-8

"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"
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