1995 164Q steering judder - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
 1Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-08-2019, 09:43 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
GTV67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: California
Posts: 392
1995 164Q steering judder

I've been working through a judder felt in the car between about 65 and 75mph. I just cannot eliminate it altogether. I definitely feel it in the steering, but sometimes i can "hear" shaking from the backseat and wonder if it's the rear-end, felt also through the steering. It's definitely not the "obvious" wheel-balance shimmy that I've felt on other cars.

If I list the steps I've taken perhaps I could get some suggestions on what to try next. Thanks in advance.

222,000 miles - I bought the car with 217,000 so didn't drive it more than about 5 miles before the following work was started.

- replaced steering-rack mounts
- new front lower ball-joints
- new front wheel bearings
- new (but used) driveshafts
- new front swaybar drop-links bushes etc
- 3x new lower engine mounts - poly top dogbone bush
- lower wishbone bushes looked/felt brand new so didn't touch them
- Tie-rods all feel pretty solid - maybe very, very slight movement felt joggling the tire held at 3+9 o'clock. certainly could feel no such movement when the rack was out of the car.

- new tires (Pirelli P7)
- front end alignment done by a pro - but wouldn't listen re. toe-out spec, so bought a laser-gauge and adjusted to slight toe-out myself (note, throughout all these toe changes, shimmy was there and never really changed)
- wheels all balanced when tires were fitted - then went back and had them re-done (same people though..maybe I should go somewhere else)

- new rear trailing arm rear bushes
- new rear struts
- 4 x new adjustable length rear arm bushings - carefully set back to original lengths - which were about 2mm different L-R
- new rear springs

- swapped wheels front-rear each side - don't know why I didn't try that before, but it's made no difference, possibly slightly worse.
- raised and lowered tire pressures a bit - no change
- dismantled left driveshaft for new boots - cleaned up and re-packed - should probably do the other side too.

So all I can think of is..
- pay someone else to re-balance the wheels - maybe find someone that can do the road-force balancing that would show up a bent wheel (16" Speedlines) but the front-rear swap makes me think that's not it.
- somehow do rear alignment again, alignment printout said they set total toe-in to 1/8" (~3mm) - i.e. a bit less than the +4 to +6mm the 1994 TSB stated. I guess my toe gauge will work on the rear - I should do that anyway now I've changed those bushings
- Change inner and outer tie-rods - but so little play there, hard to believe it's that.

grateful for any other ideas or experiences. Thanks.

-Richard
Santa Cruz, CA
GTV67 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-09-2019, 08:05 AM
Suspended by Moderators
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Calgary,Alberta,Canada
Posts: 2,622
Always suspect tire problem first. New tires are not always correctly built.

A tire with an internal problem can balance just fine and still be enough out of round to cause similar symptoms. Go to a tire shop using a road force balancer as these machines measure and can compensate to some extent for internal tire problems causing road force effects due to being out of round when loaded and spinning. I had an OEM Continental tire with this problem fitted by the factory on my Jaguar. It was acceptable when mounted on the rear axle. The road force balancer detected this slight out of round, amazing devices.

Next, although a competent alignment should should have checked for this before aligning your car, carefully check the rear wheel bearings for play or wear.

Excessive rear toe in might cause vibration.
Michael Smith is offline  
post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-09-2019, 08:48 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
GTV67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: California
Posts: 392
Thanks Michael,

I found a place near work that has a road-force balancer. I'll go next week. If you go to the Hunter website they have a dealer-locator for places with their machines.
https://www.hunter.com/gsp9700

I had the rear hubs on the bench this past weekend to change the rear trailing arm bushes, and had a good look at the rear wheel bearings then. They're a bit noisy, spin less freely than I would wish, but there's was no bad movement in the wrong planes. I'd replace them but I think you have to buy the whole hub - diFatta website says $500/pair so I decided not to bother.

and I'll play with rear toe-in this weekend.

-Richard
GTV67 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-10-2019, 09:40 AM
Senior Member
Platinum Subscriber
 
Alfissimo Int.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: San Diego
Posts: 9,483
Try that first and then go from there.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Jason Minos


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


New: +1 619-209-0715
e-mail:admin at alfissimo.com
San Diego, CA
1991 White Alfa Romeo 164S Recaro, Siena, Zender.-GONE
2010 Touareg TDI
2017 Giulia Ti Sport Q4, Trofeo, Leather package(red), 19X8, 19X9.
Alfissimo Int. is offline  
post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 06:15 AM
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
Luigim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 590
"- Tie-rods all feel pretty solid - maybe very, very slight movement felt joggling the tire held at 3+9 o'clock. certainly could feel no such movement when the rack was out of the car"

perhaps you could consider eliminating that issue first.
Seems you have taken care of everything else.
front end problems can give rise false rear end symptoms,

164LS 1994
Luigim is offline  
post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 06:33 AM
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
Luigim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 590
[QUOTE=Michael Smith;8410774]Always suspect tire problem first. New tires are not always correctly built.

snip-> The road force balancer detected this slight out of round, amazing devices. <-end snip


is this the same as "dynamic balancing"? where wheels are balanced in motion on the car, so that other front suspension factors e.g. rotor Imbalance etc. is compensated for?

164LS 1994
Luigim is offline  
post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 07:01 AM
Senior Member
Platinum Subscriber
 
Alfissimo Int.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: San Diego
Posts: 9,483
Anytime I had vibration it was always wheel/tire related. I have never had vibration from anything else on this car in 23 years.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Jason Minos


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


New: +1 619-209-0715
e-mail:admin at alfissimo.com
San Diego, CA
1991 White Alfa Romeo 164S Recaro, Siena, Zender.-GONE
2010 Touareg TDI
2017 Giulia Ti Sport Q4, Trofeo, Leather package(red), 19X8, 19X9.
Alfissimo Int. is offline  
post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 03:01 PM
Suspended by Moderators
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Calgary,Alberta,Canada
Posts: 2,622
[QUOTE=Luigim;8411926]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Smith View Post
Always suspect tire problem first. New tires are not always correctly built.

snip-> The road force balancer detected this slight out of round, amazing devices. <-end snip


is this the same as "dynamic balancing"? where wheels are balanced in motion on the car, so that other front suspension factors e.g. rotor Imbalance etc. is compensated for?
No, it is an off the car process.

The wheel/tire assembly is spun up just as for normal dynamic balance and then the machine places a heavy loading on the tire to simulate the "road force". So it doesn't just measure momentum effects it also measures the resistance of the tire to distortion from road forces. You could imagine that a defect in the tire that caused the sidewall to distort more at one spot around the tire than generally around the tire would cause a bouncing force as the "soft spot" accepted the road force and then the road force was taken up by the normal strength of the tire carcass. The weight of the tire could be perfectly equal and balanced all around the tire yet the ability of the tire to support the vehicle weight at speed would vary rhythmically with tire rpm. Also, an out of round wheel could be dynamically balanced yet create a rhythmic input to the wheel/tire at speed.

That's what a road force balancer detects and pinpoints for the operator.
Michael Smith is offline  
post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-13-2019, 07:46 AM
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
Luigim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 590
thanks, I can see where more and more shops are using this system, given the move to lower profile set ups where even a small pot hole can cause significant damage to wheel rims. My own experience points to issues caused by lost balancing weights following tire work, rather than bad tire/wheel setups.

164LS 1994

Last edited by Luigim; 05-13-2019 at 08:28 AM.
Luigim is offline  
post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-13-2019, 12:09 PM
Suspended by Moderators
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Calgary,Alberta,Canada
Posts: 2,622
New tires stay balanced if balanced correctly when installed initially. Loss of a weight of course requires a rebalance. I assume nothing is causing uneven tire wear as that can of course cause a tire to go out of balance.

Defects in the tire carcass from new that cause rolling resistance to be higher than designed tend to cause pulling towards that tire when fitted to the front axle. Moving such a defective tire to the rear axle often eliminates this issue satisfactorily.

Defects in the tire carcass that cause out of round may not pull, though often they do, but can vibrate as if unbalanced.

Damaged tire carcass due to impact can produce one or both symptoms. The key is to understand that none of these defects is necessarily visible but a road force balancer will catch most of them.

Generally speaking moving tires around the car can diagnose a defective tire which can then be properly balanced using road force balancing, moved to the rear axle if the issue isn't too bad or give rise to warranty claim to the tire maker if the tire is new or you can show it was not damaged by an impact.

Last edited by Michael Smith; 05-13-2019 at 12:19 PM.
Michael Smith is offline  
post #11 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-13-2019, 12:28 PM
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
Luigim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 590
Luigim is offline  
post #12 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-13-2019, 03:38 PM
Suspended by Moderators
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Calgary,Alberta,Canada
Posts: 2,622
Exactly.

I'm on a first name basis with my tire technician who owns his own shop.

He was so excited when he got his first Hunter road force balancer he demonstrated it to me. Didn't charge me the extra normally charged for road force balance.

Since then he's detected a defective tire for me and shown me how the machine measures the amount of run out.

Tires are marked with a dot by the factory at the low spot and so are new wheels. So the tech can match the tire to the wheel at the correct orientation to minimize run out.

This alignment process appears in the video.

The spring analogy is a reference to the soft spot in the sidewall (or hard spot sometimes, depends on the defect).

I always pay for a road force balance. It's worth it.
Michael Smith is offline  
post #13 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-13-2019, 06:37 PM
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
Luigim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 590
A few years ago my daughter after a lengthy trip in her Explorer noticed a vibration through the steering wheel, next day I drove the car and at around 40mph felt a vibration through the truck, died away at 45 and came back through the steering wheel at 65 to 70 died down at 80. She called it, as I think most people would, shimmy. It was not shimmy it was a vibration due to an unevenly worn tire caused by a loose suspension arm. What I am trying to say is that not all vibrations are due to out of balance tires and not all vibrations start with the wheels, although given enough rotations, that's where they end up.

164LS 1994
Luigim is offline  
post #14 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-13-2019, 06:54 PM
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
Luigim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 590
Richard...I take it the shimmy was present before all the work was done? Given all the work that's been done, it might be worth checking that the subframe is fully tightened. were the sway bar bushings changed. You mention 9-3 motion on the wheel can you trace it to any component or does a bearing need tightening?. Is there 12 to 6 movement. were tires rotated back to front diagonally? Wheel rims inspected inside and out for damage? Are the wheel bolts tight. Is there any build up or obstacle that would prevent the wheel from seating correctly. Drive shafts?

164LS 1994
Luigim is offline  
post #15 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-15-2019, 10:24 PM Thread Starter
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
GTV67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: California
Posts: 392
mitigation

So...I took the car to Status Auto in Menlo Park, CA - they do good business adding bigger wheels and exhausts to Porsches and other german cars - but also have the latest Hunter alignment and wheel balancing equipment and were happy to take a look at my "rad Italian" car.

They took all the weights off first (applied by the tire-fitters a few months back when the tires were first fitted) - the balancing machine and process are great to watch - an excellent step-by-step widescreen user-interface shows exactly what's going on.

2 of the wheels (btw they're 16" Speedline Mistrals) just needed regular balance weights, i.e. the road-force measurement found no anomaly - for balancing the machine rotates and draws a laser line at the midpoint of where the weight should be attached and how many weights - it does that twice, one for inner and one for outer rims. All these weights were being applied in radically different spots to where the tire-fitters had put them - I was hopeful.

But on two it found a road-force problem - the good pair had road-force readings around 6 or 7. These two were around 23-26 and lit up red, with warning messages. Then it tells him to measure rim runout - so an arm folds out and is held against the inside of the outer rim edge while it rotates - after which it draws two more lines (laser) - one on the tire which he marks in grease-pen, then rotates for a 2nd mark on the wheel. Then off to the tire-fitting machine - break both beads, grab the tire, machine rotates the wheel until the lines meet up - then back to the balancer.

One of them then dropped to 5 on the road-force measurement so was cured - then balanced as above with weights.

But one of them stayed around 23. That rim is bent - and it was visibly bent when spinning up for the measurement - not good. But he re-balanced it anyway. We agreed that "at least now I know" and put the wheels back on, the bad one was from the rear-right and we left it there. $140 total and I was there at least 90 minutes. I'll be going back to this place.

Then the 40 mile drive home and...the problem is gone, pretty much. If I get up to about 65 and hold the wheel with fingertips, maybe, just maybe I can feel something, but it's hugely better and really pretty good for at least one slightly bent wheel. The roads are so bad in the Bay Area that I won't notice - 80 feels like 70 used to. I bet it uses less gas too!

I could buy a set of wheels for it, but 1995, 222,000 miles, 80 mile daily drive roundtrip and now I can't feel it? probably not. There are places that can "straighten" bent wheels - but I'm not sure I trust in the process, or what it changes in the metal's properties.

Thanks for all the suggestions above - he felt for tie-rod play before he removed the wheels and he couldn't feel what I mention above - all wheel bearings are good and all bushings in good shape. Time to drive.

-Richard
GTV67 is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
My 1995 Alfa Romeo 164q chosen for PaintRef AlfaEricWashDC 164 & 168 (1991-1995) 1 07-07-2017 05:04 PM
For Sale: 1995 164Q 81gtv6 Alfa Romeo Cars For Sale & Wanted 27 03-06-2017 06:27 AM
For Sale: 1995 164Q Daddycar Alfa Romeo Cars For Sale & Wanted 22 05-28-2016 04:38 PM
Wanted: 1995 LS Power steering pressure hose alfafan61 Alfa Romeo Parts For Sale & Wanted 0 12-08-2012 09:00 AM
Steering Effort Question JBWesterwick Spider - 105 & 115 Series (1966-1994) 9 09-02-2010 10:20 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome