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post #61 of 90 (permalink) Old 07-11-2018, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Rogue Leader View Post
- The only real rust/rot I found was the passenger rear 1/4. You can see the hole, also the lump in the side and rot under the gas cap. This is clearly an issue, I am guessing I'll need a whole new 1/4 to truly repair this. Anyone got one?

I think looking at everything its probably a worthy project starting point, thoughts?
Hi Rogue,

My good Alfa friend and former 164-S owner (W.L.) says that "the 164 will out Alfa any Alfa he has ever driven" and he has had quite a few Alfa Romeo cars! I agree, with the possible exception of the Montreal and the newer generation of 8C and Giulias.

I found this on eBay but suspect it'll be too much $ perhaps an offer...:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/ALFA-ROMEO-...19.m1438.l2649

I am glad you were able to get your uncles rusty "S" for basically the price of a parts car. Several years ago, I was given a Metallic green 164L automatic that ran and drove well (about the least desirable Alfa you could find). My son was ~17 and fell in love with this car -his favorite color is green...for a little over $4,000 we restored this car and it was his daily driver for a year or two. It really was a fun car and drove very nicely. In the end we sold it on eBay for ~$1,800. Here it is after the $800 Maaco paint job with Levi.
Name:  164Levi.jpg
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There is a Red "S" on eBay, right now, for $2500 that appears to be in pretty good condition -with a modified paint scheme and Recarro seats.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1991-Alfa-R...cAAOSwY3tbQAeD



Mark
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Last edited by IRONBLOCK; 07-11-2018 at 11:54 AM.
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post #62 of 90 (permalink) Old 07-11-2018, 11:55 AM Thread Starter
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@IRONBLOCK

Thanks for that, I may well order it. Just waiting to get the car in my greedy little hands before ordering anything. I showed my body guy the pics and he said he wants to see it in person he may prefer to fix it than to replace it. I guess we will see what he says.
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-RL; 1991 Alfa Romeo 164S, 2014 Mercedes Benz E350 4Matic, 2010 Chevrolet Camaro SS, 2008 Chevrolet Silverado 2500HD, 1995 Volkswagen Golf (Race Car)
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post #63 of 90 (permalink) Old 07-16-2018, 10:40 AM Thread Starter
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Well its home!



I have to say, like nothing I have ever driven. A very interesting quirky car.

Observations

- Car drove better and better as I went, product of it sitting for months I am sure. Engine pulls strong, sounds great, way faster than I expected. Transmission is fine, clutch is fine, a little tough to get into reverse, but probably just need to get used to it. Suspension feels great, BUT I realized I was wrong the electronics do not work, there is a red light between the AUTO and SPORT buttons. Steering felt great as well. The battery keeps dying on it after a week (cousin said), but same deal may be from sitting, will check to see if there is some sort of draw. Battery may just be shot. I would say mechanically the car is near perfect (barring the oil pressure senders), it drives far better than it looks. (pending speaking to the mechanic about when the last timing belt change is of course)

- Trip odometer seems to stick, regular odometer works though (only 81k miles!). Speedo sticks as well, its like stuck on 18mph, then it will pop up to normal, then sometimes drop. Also when I stopped for gas the rear defroster turned off, then I pressed the brake again and it turned back on. Has an aftermarket radio that doesn't turn on.

- Interior is pretty thrashed. The seats while the cushioning feels great and aren't ripped are very worn. I may be able to rehab the rears, but the fronts likely need to be recovered. Everything seems to work (didn't try heaters, it was 85* out!). Leather is worn and damaged on drivers door, everything needs a real good bath, carpet is shot. Buttons and controls are all ok.

- the A/C works!! I turned it on, didn't hear the sound from the other day, the fans blow fine, but it was warm. It stayed kinda ambient/warm for about 5 minutes then suddenly ice cold. My cousin said he never used the AC in the car, looks like it was converted to R134a (has a blue cap underhood), but it works, and the vents all blow.

- The alarm remotes are gone, only have 1 key, and a tiny key which I assume is for the alarm . The alarm seems to be disabled, central locking works though. Theres a key hole on the dash, is that for the alarm?

- Whats up with the trunk? If I press the button on the dash to pop the trunk, I need to physically stick the key in and lock it for it to close and stay closed. Thats annoying.

So far so good. Need to register it this week or next.

-RL; 1991 Alfa Romeo 164S, 2014 Mercedes Benz E350 4Matic, 2010 Chevrolet Camaro SS, 2008 Chevrolet Silverado 2500HD, 1995 Volkswagen Golf (Race Car)
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post #64 of 90 (permalink) Old 07-16-2018, 11:46 AM
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Make sure the trunk is not in valet mode. See the owner's manual.

John Stewart
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post #65 of 90 (permalink) Old 07-16-2018, 11:57 AM
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Congrats. You will love driving the car, more as time goes on. It is a work horse, and I've used one as a DD since 1994.

Does the red light for the suspension stay on? It usually comes on and then goes off. If it stays on, it is usually just a dirty/bad connection near/to the struts. It does default to the sport setting. No biggie then if you like it (I do).

Don't know what is up with the rear defroster light or whatever being on if you are not using it. I have almost never used it myself, but know that it is a big draw, and can melt the fuse and holder. Some have replaced the holder and fuse with a bigger heavy duty unit.

You sure it is the defroster light? Sometimes the brake pad and/or brake fluid lights will flash or come on, requiring a little detective work to find the problem. Can be a relay, low fluid, dirty level sender, or a bad brake pad wear indicator wiring connection near the brake pads. Had that problem with mine, just jumpered one of those connections to put the light out.

It is always a pity that most owners have no clue how to take care of leather upholstery, ruining it in just a few years. You can make the worn leather look better, for a while, by using something like Kiwi liquid black "dab on" shoe polish (if the interior is black of course) to bring color back, and then a couple of days later using lots of something like ArmorAll leather care goop. Some use Leatherique, but I like the ArmorAll stuff, as it seems to work well in keeping the leather at least semisoft for quite a while. I smoosh on a lot of it and let it soak in for a while, then rub it in, sometimes doing it again the next day.

The tiny key is for the alarm unit in the trunk. I just turn the alarm off with the key and leave the key in the unit. Don't want/need the flakey alarm and resulting disabling.

The key slot in the dash, if you mean the one to the left of the glove box, is for the glove box lock.

It sounds like the trunk lock or the mechanism is sticky. Should just close and lock by just shutting the trunk lid. Maybe use electronics cleaner spray (nonsticky, noncorrosive, etc, because some people do not like graphite, or WD-40 or whatever) to clean the insides.

Something to note: Many of the 164S, and maybe other models, can use oil at a prodigious rate, ie, 300-500 miles to the qt, so it would behoove you to check the oil level regularly for a few fuel fillings to see if yours is one. Mine is, and I keep a booklet to keep records of fuel fillings, mileage and oil fillings, besides other maintenance/repairs.

Del

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1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

Last edited by Del; 07-16-2018 at 12:08 PM.
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post #66 of 90 (permalink) Old 07-16-2018, 12:03 PM
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Since battery draining and you have to lock trunk with key to keep it closed I suspect you possibly have a intermittent shorted trunk unlock button on a/c panel.

If trunk pops open on you with trunk key turned off valet position to dash panel push button position the unlock solenoid maybe overheating and retracting.

My S would auto pop open when I hit a bump. My L keep running battery down and solenoid stayed hot enough to burn my fingers.

Ciao, Alfisto Steve
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Alfa Semi-Daily driver: USA model - BB2 1991 164S Black Beauty II ALFISTO [U]

[U] BB1 1991 164L w/S engine and A/T now excess to inventory [U]

Daily driver and parts hauler but not car hauler 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4.7L H.O. V-8

"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"

Last edited by Alfisto Steve; 07-16-2018 at 12:06 PM.
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post #67 of 90 (permalink) Old 07-16-2018, 12:30 PM Thread Starter
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@Del Yeah the red light on the suspension stays on, will check the connectors and I don't mind the sport ride, but TBH I may replace the whole deal with Konis (if I can find them) and lowering springs. As for the defroster light yeah that was it, I think you misread what I wrote.

I turned on the rear defroster on purpose (and it works fine windows was foggy it was raining), and when i stopped the car at the gas station for some reason the light went off, but then i pressed he brake pedal and it came back on. Random and maybe coincidental as they are not connected systems.

I'll try your leather tips on the rear seats, they look most saveable. The fronts may be too far gone. Have like yellow crack lines from the color being gone.

So getting a replacement remote and trying to rehab the stock alarm is not recommended? I couldn't find this box in the trunk, when I looked yesterday, where exactly is it? Would be nice to at least have keyless entry.

I'll try cleaning the trunk mechanism, wanted to just make sure this wasn't normal operation. And yeah the car has a leaky oil pan gasket, so I'd imagine either way its going to be using oil. How hard is that to change from under the car, are all the bolts accessible?

@Alfisto Steve I'm a little confused by your second sentence. Basically the trunk doesn't pop on its own, but does require that I insert the key to close it if I use the interior switch. Is the relay you are talking about in the fuse box or elsewhere?

@Roadtrip I don't have the manual, but i just bought one on eBay.

-RL; 1991 Alfa Romeo 164S, 2014 Mercedes Benz E350 4Matic, 2010 Chevrolet Camaro SS, 2008 Chevrolet Silverado 2500HD, 1995 Volkswagen Golf (Race Car)
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post #68 of 90 (permalink) Old 07-16-2018, 12:38 PM
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Normal trunk unlocking with the key:
Insert and turn key 45 deg to the RIGHT (CW).

To put in valet mode so interior button will not work:
Insert key and turn it LEFT (CCW) 180 deg and remove key.

To disable valet mode:
Insert key and turn it RIGHT (CW) 180 deg and remove key.
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post #69 of 90 (permalink) Old 07-16-2018, 02:07 PM
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" but TBH I may replace the whole deal with Konis (if I can find them) and lowering springs"

I wouldn't be in any hurry to do that, as for one thing, the Konis are just about unobtainium, and lowering, well, that's your choice, but many make mistakes doing that. Talk to Jason for advice on that. Depends on how you are going to use the car, and personally, I don't think it helps the handling worth talking about. People do it mostly for something different looking. Your choice. My own opinion of course.

Don't forget to make sure the front suspension toe setting is near zero, not toe out like the original settings for the car. That toe out setting destroyed tires quickly.

The S struts are easily rebuildable if you buy the replacement seals and machined carriers (talk to Pinino about those), not that difficult or costly compared to Konis (~$200 each, if you could find a full set, which I totally seriously doubt), for instance. Some, including myself and R2 have done it. It is written up in the BB. I do have Konis on the LS, set to approximate the response of the S sport setting on the same roads, and personally, either work as well as the other. Personally, I'd just rebuild the S shocks.

Some people have put in aftermarket or used alarms, but that's your choice. The alarm unit is under the right rear fender carpet, and it uses a very small key to turn on or off. I just cut a small hole in the carpet at that location and left the key in the unit, turned off.

The yellow cracks in the leather, if it is black, is why I mentioned using the Kiwi liquid shoe polish slopped on first to redye the leather. Works ok. Don't forget the instrument cowl if still original.

How IS the leather on the instrument cowl? Usually by this time it is trashed, all shrunk and curved all out of shape, and replaced with one from an LS. I use a white towel draped over the top of the steering wheel and original cowl to protect them while not driving the car, even in store parking lots, lol. Still look fine. Esp the wheel, which in some cars, is trashed and split open.

For oil drops on the pavement, the Alfa is just marking it's spot. The pan gasket isn't the problem with using a lot of oil. My Alfa trained mechanic says that a few of the cars came with bad oil rings, and that's where the oil goes with the engine is running, alas. He says the only fix, as was described to and done by him was to install new better oil rings. No problems with that oil consumption then. My Milano and 94 LS, same basic engine, use no oil whatsoever, but the S, oh yes.

The pan gasket is very difficult to change, so I've heard/read. Steve has said: "It is a ***** of a job". You don't really want to do it.

The oil and filter are easy to change. To change the filter, just jack up the car, remove the rf wheel, and reach in past the power steering pump and up to the rear mounted filter. A band clamp "just" works to loosen it. Use the 24V smaller sized filter for better access. Almost all do now.

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

Last edited by Del; 07-16-2018 at 04:13 PM.
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post #70 of 90 (permalink) Old 07-16-2018, 02:22 PM Thread Starter
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@Del yeah I see Jason seems to know what to do there. I'd like it just a small amount lower, so when I put 17 inch wheels on they will fill the wells up more. I have found some places in Europe list the Konis as available there, also a place called Performatek, but their site is kinda sketchy and I'm assuming outdated. That said I've seen the strut rebuild procedure as well, if needed I could probably do that too.

I could do an aftermarket alarm, but would prefer to avoid cutting the wiring in a car that may have questionable wiring as is. Is it worth bothering to get a new remote and seeing if it will work? As long as I can get into the trunk I can disable it right?

I will try that with the Kiwi (yes the interior is black), I think it will work well on the back seat for sure, didn't realize thats what you meant. The front may be too far gone. How durable do you think that would be? The carpet is completely shot. I am assuming that is NLA and I'd need to use some sort of universal replacement I'd cut myself.

The Cowl leather is ok condition wise but I think is peeling towards the dash top. The part that goes down along the dash buttons I think was ok.

I figured the pan gasket wasn't the only issue. That sucks its so hard to change, probably why my uncle left it, I'll take a look to see what I'm getting into before buying anything, and maybe instead just get a driveway pan. Thanks for the heads up on the filter.

-RL; 1991 Alfa Romeo 164S, 2014 Mercedes Benz E350 4Matic, 2010 Chevrolet Camaro SS, 2008 Chevrolet Silverado 2500HD, 1995 Volkswagen Golf (Race Car)
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post #71 of 90 (permalink) Old 07-16-2018, 04:23 PM
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Driveway pans are de rigueur for Alfas and old British cars it seems. I have several, lol. Pan drips are not a big deal for lost oil, just slightly messy after time.

Check as to where the oil comes from. There are multiple locations around the engine for drips to start. When I bought my 91S used, it had a big oil leak from behind the engine. Turned out to be a loose oil cooler line I guess. Easy to fix. No more leak.

Be sure to pull the crankcase blow-by oil vapor recovery unit from the back of the rear head and clean the entire system thoroughly including the little drain hose leading back down to the top of the oil pump cover (took me three days of solvent sloshing in the can itself), as the system can fill with crud quickly, and the resulting oil drips into the air bellows and then everywhere on that side of the engine. Or it could be just a leaky cam cover gasket?

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

Last edited by Del; 07-16-2018 at 04:27 PM.
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post #72 of 90 (permalink) Old 07-16-2018, 05:36 PM
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Sounds like by you having to have to use key to lock trunk you are turning it CCW 180 degrees to select valet position and remove power from lock solenoid located inside deck lid near emblem and latch. I did not say relay but relay is hidden behind right side trunk carpet along with fuel filler door relay and fuel door solenoid as well as sport suspension accelerometer, siren and more.

Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA
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Alfa Semi-Daily driver: USA model - BB2 1991 164S Black Beauty II ALFISTO [U]

[U] BB1 1991 164L w/S engine and A/T now excess to inventory [U]

Daily driver and parts hauler but not car hauler 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4.7L H.O. V-8

"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"
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post #73 of 90 (permalink) Old 07-16-2018, 05:43 PM
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Good luck with it!

The shoe dye has held up well for me. Cheap and easy to bring some life back to the leather. I didnít want to commit to anything more involved and it has worked well.

John
1991 Alfa Romeo 164L, 1993 Ford 5.0L Mustang
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post #74 of 90 (permalink) Old 07-16-2018, 08:46 PM Thread Starter
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@Del you make a good point, it may well not be the pan. I mean as of right now the oil pan and everything behind it has a coating of oil (you can see it in one of the pics I posted), but it could well be coming from the cam cover down the front of the engine to it. More inspection is needed and I will check all those things you mentioned. I think I am also leaning towards trying to fix the factory electric suspension, it would be cool to have it fully functional vs trying to dig up some unobtanium shocks. If they show up i'll consider them, but I'm not going to hold up the project waiting to find them.

@Alfisto Steve the problem seems to have cleared itself up maybe it was related to the trunk having not been open for a while so it got a bit gummed up, but I went back made sure it was not in Valet mode and I tested it a few different ways and now it seems to behave properly. I will however check the electrical parts you mentioned relating to the possible power draw.

I also managed to dig up the owners manual. Little beat up but good.

@Spitfire awesome I am glad it works so well, I'm excited to try it now!

-RL; 1991 Alfa Romeo 164S, 2014 Mercedes Benz E350 4Matic, 2010 Chevrolet Camaro SS, 2008 Chevrolet Silverado 2500HD, 1995 Volkswagen Golf (Race Car)
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post #75 of 90 (permalink) Old 07-16-2018, 11:01 PM
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As far as I know, the yellow adjustable Konis, which are the ones you would want to use, haven't been made for a few years by Koni, and people have pretty much sucked them all up everywhere, except for maybe one here or there. I bought the set for the LS quite a few years ago.

I do think you are better off using the original S shocks as they are now in default sport mode, checking the connections in the wheel wells if you want them to be capable of the auto mode. Might just be dirty or disconnected. The shock valves themselves are not a problem AFAIK.

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

Last edited by Del; 07-16-2018 at 11:04 PM.
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