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post #16 of 90 (permalink) Old 06-25-2018, 08:55 PM Thread Starter
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Multi quoting everything is starting to get crazy so I hope people here are ok with @ mentions

@Del - Yes sounds like thats the best advice. Of course I'll do them over with new parts if needed but without having even driven the car, I won't throw a lot of money at it, yet. I should have all those records available to me. Definitely want to get my hands on that shop manual.

@Michael Smith - I'd like it to be loud but not like obnoxious. Not going for flowmaster Mustang or fart can Civic here. The Alfa just has a distinctive sound that I'd like to amplify a bit more. On My Camaro I have a set of Borlas which are nice. if you wail on the car they can make some noise, but they don't drone on long trips, and at idle or low speeds they give a good throaty rumble that is not too loud, but just makes your presence known. Not that I'm trying to show off, i just like the engine note. Thats one of the things that attracted me to the car. Maybe fitting the CSC or ANSA and replacing that resonator with a straight pipe will give me what I'm looking for.

I'll have to measure the brake pistons with some calipers in both, just for the hell of it, interested to see how similar they are.

@Alfissimo Int. - Thanks. I've been all over your website and I'm sure we will be doing business some day. So you suggest removing the mid muffler as well. I don't see but do you sell a replacement pipe without it, or is that something you suggest having an exhaust shop fab up for me? It appears the ANSA is rare, does the CSC sound similar?

@jc96 Thanks. Most likely the first things that will be done after mechanical is to get the interior in top shape, then paint as its shot, then go from there. The car at least is good to go driveable as is, so I can get a feeling for where it is and where I want it to go. Its always nice to start a project with a baseline than just throw parts at it and hope they behave as you like.

-RL; 1991 Alfa Romeo 164S, 2014 Mercedes Benz E350 4Matic, 2010 Chevrolet Camaro SS, 2008 Chevrolet Silverado 2500HD, 1995 Volkswagen Golf (Race Car)
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post #17 of 90 (permalink) Old 06-25-2018, 09:47 PM
Del
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" Not that I'm trying to show off, i just like the engine note'

Just keep in mind that the car may end up louder on the outside than where you sit in the car, lol.

My only other comment is that Alfa, in contrast to most other makes, spends time and money to get the car to have THAT sound, and not too loud. Nice and subtle.

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

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post #18 of 90 (permalink) Old 06-26-2018, 05:33 AM
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I test drove an S with the ANSA and it was a much deeper note than my CSC. The CSC by itself in my opinion was too muffled, thus I removed the mid silencer. When you get to that point I can email over a video if you need it. I liked the quality, and the twin tips of the CSC fit nice in the bumper cutout.

I think you probably notice this is a practical group of enthusiasts! The car is great to drive, but undervalued and easy to lose money on.

I guess I sort of saved mine and dumped more into it cosmetically than might be recommended, but Iím on 5 years and 25,000 miles with a car that I really enjoy. Have fun with it, but understand what youíre getting into.

If I had a couple other comments, I would say check into the electronic strut rebuild process. If it doesnít need it now, at least youíll be prepared in the future. There are a few threads on that. Maybe it was linked in Roadtrips guide.

And if it was a DD in Long Island, just give it a good inspection for rust.

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1991 Alfa Romeo 164L, 1993 Ford 5.0L Mustang
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post #19 of 90 (permalink) Old 06-26-2018, 05:44 AM
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Multi quoting everything is starting to get crazy so I hope people here are ok with @ mentions

@Del - Yes sounds like thats the best advice. Of course I'll do them over with new parts if needed but without having even driven the car, I won't throw a lot of money at it, yet. I should have all those records available to me. Definitely want to get my hands on that shop manual.

@Michael Smith - I'd like it to be loud but not like obnoxious. Not going for flowmaster Mustang or fart can Civic here. The Alfa just has a distinctive sound that I'd like to amplify a bit more. On My Camaro I have a set of Borlas which are nice. if you wail on the car they can make some noise, but they don't drone on long trips, and at idle or low speeds they give a good throaty rumble that is not too loud, but just makes your presence known. Not that I'm trying to show off, i just like the engine note. Thats one of the things that attracted me to the car. Maybe fitting the CSC or ANSA and replacing that resonator with a straight pipe will give me what I'm looking for.

I'll have to measure the brake pistons with some calipers in both, just for the hell of it, interested to see how similar they are.

@Alfissimo Int. - Thanks. I've been all over your website and I'm sure we will be doing business some day. So you suggest removing the mid muffler as well. I don't see but do you sell a replacement pipe without it, or is that something you suggest having an exhaust shop fab up for me? It appears the ANSA is rare, does the CSC sound similar?

@jc96 Thanks. Most likely the first things that will be done after mechanical is to get the interior in top shape, then paint as its shot, then go from there. The car at least is good to go driveable as is, so I can get a feeling for where it is and where I want it to go. Its always nice to start a project with a baseline than just throw parts at it and hope they behave as you like.
Not moving it, just removing it and adding a straight pipe in it's place. Most either do that or replace the whole thing when it rusts out. That will give you a good amount of note. Ansa is rare and nothing different than what CSC has now. Similar in sound yes, they are both made exactly the same basically as stock but with less junk inside to muffle the sound. The Cat is so big on the S and 24V cars that the mid is just a slight softener to sound. The thing is still loud all stock but if you are looking for a bit more than that then removing that center muffler will do the trick. Adding a smaller muffler or cylinder muffler in it's place can also change the sound greatly. Similar to this:
You can amplify it more and still make it sound classy. Trust me. It will never sound like a honda or mustang. I have had all sorts of set ups on this car from no CAT version 164 front dual mufflers, no mid and a remus rear, it sounded great.



or CSC:



Now that said there is a little more noise at highway speeds when mid is out. Not really a big deal. I don't ever listen to music in mine as I prefer to just listen to the engine. Enjoy it!


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post #20 of 90 (permalink) Old 06-26-2018, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue Leader View Post
Excellent, yeah I'll check out that wire and see whats happening. I don't mind paying $16 for a plug and play part.



Since I'm likely going to get some new wheels I'll wait on the tires to do that. I'm familiar with Girling calipers from my VWs, I've rebuilt many, busted a few, etc. Of course on the street fade isn't much of an issue like in a race car, still I do like a stiffer pedal when possible. The Steel braided lines should help with that, and then as you said, I just need to get used to how they feel. Depending when they were last serviced I will consider rebuilding the calipers as well. My Mercedes has electric brakes (and steering), it is a bit weird, but they do a good job of simulating the feeling of real brakes.

Interestingly enough I was looking at Centerline Alfa and I noticed the actual stock calipers for this car (front and rear) LOOK identical to the ones on my Golf. Of course there may be differences, but I'm interested to get them next to each other and see if theres anything visibly different.

I'll have to dig into his receipts regarding the belt. I know in recent years he didn't drive the car a lot because he retired. It was his daily but he wasn't doing a daily commute. When he would go out for fun he would take the GTV or Spider.
They are not identical, close but not. Rears are very similar to any VAG product. I also had a few VW's in my life, about 6. from the 80's GTI's, 90's GTI's to 2000 Jettas. Now a Touareg in the Fam. Jetta's were the closest but no cigar. Same piston size. 39mm for rears

Now my mention of 24V brakes like I said is a cheaper way to do it. You move from 54mm front to 57mm and a thicker disc to dissipate heat (5mm thicker). 12V is completely suitable for street use if in tip top condition. I did in the past have problems with the 12V brake system in spirited driving thus moving to 24V which I have none. The larger booster, front calipers and discs make a pretty drastic difference. Tires are for sure crucial but so are brakes, if the brakes can't stop the car, the tires are useless. Now if the brakes are working well then tires add to the braking as it should. I had fade problems with the 12V rotors. You could even just replace the rotors and calipers in front with a significant improvement. I will say I have had some fade coming down the hill from my home in Flagstaff to Sedona on the switchbacks with the old 12V brakes and that was not even spirited driving..much. The rotors just cannot dissipate the heat well due to being a thinner rotor.


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1989 Spider Quad. Gone
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2010 Touareg TDI
2017 Giulia Ti Sport Q4, Trofeo, Leather package(red), 19X8, 19X9.

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post #21 of 90 (permalink) Old 06-26-2018, 06:17 AM
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Remember that the driver hears mainly the engine noise, it is the passerby who hears the exhaust. Most of the aural enjoyment delivered by an Alfa engine comes from the front of the car.

When my local muffler shop could not readily source an OEM sized resonator we opted for a cylindrical resonator about twice the diameter of the pipe, and a full sized rear muffler. I like the sound but my wife does not. The engine note is preserved of course and full throttle exhaust sound is very good but there is an unpleasant boom at low rpm.

Factory exhausts have been pretty much unbeatable for performance since fuel economy became so important even for performance cars. Good exhaust design is free fuel economy and aftermarket cannot beat the factory setup without compromising somewhere on noise levels.

1991 Alfa Romeo 164L 5 spd
White on grey leather 230K km, owned from new
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post #22 of 90 (permalink) Old 06-26-2018, 06:53 AM
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It's not obnoxious with mid muffler removed both for driver nor those who hear the exhaust note. It's still very civilized.
Depends on the aftermarket exhaust. Like I said, most of them are just OEM copies with a little noise suppression material removed. Again, noise is amplified slightly but not to an obnoxious level, not even close. It's when you remove the mid, put on some loud maganflow tuner type muffler or similar is when it starts to become annoying.


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2010 Touareg TDI
2017 Giulia Ti Sport Q4, Trofeo, Leather package(red), 19X8, 19X9.

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post #23 of 90 (permalink) Old 06-26-2018, 07:07 AM
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My stock exhaust system was replaced under warranty. A couple years later when it rusted through again, it was replaced with a Stebro stainless steel system -from the cats back. I love this system, it has a deep rumble and no drone.

I've heard that later Stebro systems seemed to have quality and delivery issues from Canada. I don't believe that new units are available any longer but I see used ones offered occasionally on eBay...you might get lucky.

Just for the record, I tried the 'cat by pass' for a couple of weeks. I can't say that it was any faster but I got the first and only speeding ticket ever with the catless car! The car was noticeably louder but smelled up the garage something awful.

The Remus looks nice if you can get one from Jason, I would.

Have you seen these?

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/alfa...64-wheels.html

Mark
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post #24 of 90 (permalink) Old 06-26-2018, 07:36 AM
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My stock exhaust system was replaced under warranty. A couple years later when it rusted through again, it was replaced with a Stebro stainless steel system -from the cats back. I love this system, it has a deep rumble and no drone.

I've heard that later Stebro systems seemed to have quality and delivery issues from Canada. I don't believe that new units are available any longer but I see used ones offered occasionally on eBay...you might get lucky.

Just for the record, I tried the 'cat by pass' for a couple of weeks. I can't say that it was any faster but I got the first and only speeding ticket ever with the catless car! The car was noticeably louder but smelled up the garage something awful.

The Remus looks nice if you can get one from Jason, I would.

Have you seen these?

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/alfa...64-wheels.html

Mark
Yes, mine stunk too and was louder. I also placed the O2 sensor at the very front of the exhaust. Stebro was nice stuff. Had some issues with delivery and so forth.

You could remove mid and ad an ANSA resonator. 2 1/4" IN/OUT 16" long. So I would need to measure if it would work. No idea if made in Italy, probably not since it is universal line.



Just an idea.


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2010 Touareg TDI
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post #25 of 90 (permalink) Old 06-26-2018, 08:30 AM Thread Starter
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@Del - Good point, trying to find a happy medium

@Spitfire - I would love to hear it, do you have the video up on Youtube or otherwise I'll pass along my email address? The ANSA looks near impossible to find, so it looks like in my head so far I'm leaning remove silencer and get the CSC. Also I love the way that black CSC muffler looks.

I've come to terms with the fact that I'm totally spending more than the car is worth on it. Especially if I repaint the car. My intention of course would be to keep the car, but in the worst case that I have to sell it some day, I want to at least get the enjoyment out of it of having it look nice and run nice, etc. I like having something different, which this definitely is. Its a car worth getting upside down on because from what i see its fun and rewarding to drive. But like you said, know what you are getting into.

I looked into the struts, I have a friend who can do the machine work for me. But then I've also considered maybe getting my hands on the Konis for the car instead and lowering it slightly. I don't mind the continuously sporty ride.

And yeah I know to closely inspect the rear subframe as well because it can rot out right? Then maybe the car wouldn't be worth dealing with.

@Alfissimo Int. - I think I'm going to go that route, I saw on your site you have the CSC muffler all black with chrome tips which looks sweet, so I'll just need to have an exhaust shop fab me up a pipe to eliminate the silencer. Or do you sell that CSC combo that you pictured? Do you sell Remus?

I'll have to see what kind of shape the brakes are currently in and decide how to move forward, maybe the 24v brakes are the way to go, and if I need to replace some parts, may as well upgrade. It looks like you have those front calipers and rotors as well, I'm assuming this all bolts right on?

@IRONBLOCK - checked ebay for ANSA and Stebro and didn't find anything right now. Guess I'll look around. As for those wheels not really the look I was going for, I found a 1995 Alfa Romeo 164Q on bringatrailer from October 2016 that I fell in love with the look of. Its slightly lowered and has multispoke wheels. I'd post the link but don't have enough posts yet.

Anyway fell in love with that wheel style. the O.Z. Superturismo LM is available in Silver and 5x98 and look similar but nicer than these, so i'll probably go that route.

Kind of interesting to need to hunt for certain desirable parts for a car.

-RL; 1991 Alfa Romeo 164S, 2014 Mercedes Benz E350 4Matic, 2010 Chevrolet Camaro SS, 2008 Chevrolet Silverado 2500HD, 1995 Volkswagen Golf (Race Car)
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post #26 of 90 (permalink) Old 06-26-2018, 08:33 AM
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@Del - Good point, trying to find a happy medium

@Spitfire - I would love to hear it, do you have the video up on Youtube or otherwise I'll pass along my email address? The ANSA looks near impossible to find, so it looks like in my head so far I'm leaning remove silencer and get the CSC. Also I love the way that black CSC muffler looks.

I've come to terms with the fact that I'm totally spending more than the car is worth on it. Especially if I repaint the car. My intention of course would be to keep the car, but in the worst case that I have to sell it some day, I want to at least get the enjoyment out of it of having it look nice and run nice, etc. I like having something different, which this definitely is. Its a car worth getting upside down on because from what i see its fun and rewarding to drive. But like you said, know what you are getting into.

I looked into the struts, I have a friend who can do the machine work for me. But then I've also considered maybe getting my hands on the Konis for the car instead and lowering it slightly. I don't mind the continuously sporty ride.

And yeah I know to closely inspect the rear subframe as well because it can rot out right? Then maybe the car wouldn't be worth dealing with.

@Alfissimo Int. - I think I'm going to go that route, I saw on your site you have the CSC muffler all black with chrome tips which looks sweet, so I'll just need to have an exhaust shop fab me up a pipe to eliminate the silencer. Or do you sell that CSC combo that you pictured? Do you sell Remus?

I'll have to see what kind of shape the brakes are currently in and decide how to move forward, maybe the 24v brakes are the way to go, and if I need to replace some parts, may as well upgrade. It looks like you have those front calipers and rotors as well, I'm assuming this all bolts right on?

@IRONBLOCK - checked ebay for ANSA and Stebro and didn't find anything right now. Guess I'll look around. As for those wheels not really the look I was going for, I found a 1995 Alfa Romeo 164Q on bringatrailer from October 2016 that I fell in love with the look of. Its slightly lowered and has multispoke wheels. I'd post the link but don't have enough posts yet.

Anyway fell in love with that wheel style. the O.Z. Superturismo LM is available in Silver and 5x98 and look similar but nicer than these, so i'll probably go that route.

Kind of interesting to need to hunt for certain desirable parts for a car.
I do sell the CSC combo. Remus I have phased out since there is nothing for older Alfa's anymore.

Takes about 2 weeks to bring in. Let me know?

I also can get them in the SS look.



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post #27 of 90 (permalink) Old 06-26-2018, 08:41 AM Thread Starter
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Ok so that CSC combo with the silencer though will be somewhat quieter than removing the stock silencer? And they don't sell the pipe straight (without silencer) right?

Will definitely let you know once I get my hands on the car.

-RL; 1991 Alfa Romeo 164S, 2014 Mercedes Benz E350 4Matic, 2010 Chevrolet Camaro SS, 2008 Chevrolet Silverado 2500HD, 1995 Volkswagen Golf (Race Car)
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post #28 of 90 (permalink) Old 06-26-2018, 09:07 AM
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We found that there are some systems which produce an unpleasant drone at cruise rpms. We had that happen when we replaced the rear muffler on the Milano with an Ansa. We couldn't stand it. Also noticed it in an 91S which had a Stebro exhaust. Have to admit don't know if some of the other systems do the same. Alfa just happens to be susceptible to this phenomenon for some reason. Michael mentions this as well. Seems to happen near and around the usual cruise rpm of 3000, in any gear.

Just be aware of that.

And, I think you have much to do with the car before worrying about which exhaust system you might want to screw with. First things first.

Have fun.

Del

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1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
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post #29 of 90 (permalink) Old 06-26-2018, 09:09 AM Thread Starter
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Very true... itching to get my hands on this thing and see whats up.

-RL; 1991 Alfa Romeo 164S, 2014 Mercedes Benz E350 4Matic, 2010 Chevrolet Camaro SS, 2008 Chevrolet Silverado 2500HD, 1995 Volkswagen Golf (Race Car)
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post #30 of 90 (permalink) Old 06-26-2018, 09:23 AM
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Ok so that CSC combo with the silencer though will be somewhat quieter than removing the stock silencer? And they don't sell the pipe straight (without silencer) right?

Will definitely let you know once I get my hands on the car.
Somewhat but not drastically quieter. I like the cylindrical better than the triangle, less baffling and less space for pulses to get thrown around. More of a straight through design and cuts out the drone we talk about here. Gives you a nice throaty sound.

I agree with Michael to some extent that the OEM is the best design but also not. Clearly we can make it better. Straying from OEM is not a bad thing if done right plus it's more fun!!! Manifolds would be the place to start on the exhaust for any true improvement. I posted many moons ago here under "exhaust 101" why keeping the system at 2 1/4 is best if under 300hp. and that most cat back systems do not produce more than maybe a hp in gains which you will never in your life feel. What it does is produce a slightly different sound and is an alternative part to OEM or aftermarket steel/iron. The only way to really produce some extra HP and fuel economy is to start with the manifold in the exhaust system. You can even experience more hp/mpg with a new ss manifold and stock exhaust/Cat.

The CSC stuff is nice. Is it the best? No way, the company has gone bankrupt 3 times and I have experienced some crappy workmanship in the manifolds. Supersprint is the best by far. But nothing for 164 anymore unless I do a 5 unit run with them. Maybe later if 164's start needing rear exhaust and IMSAF stuff is gone. OEM is pretty much gone at this point for the 12V. At least the CSC has the smaller muffler to combat the drone sound. If you are into raw car sound then omit it all together. Thats the fun of driving!!!!


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1989 Spider Quad. Gone
1991 White Alfa Romeo 164S Recaro, Siena, Zender.-GONE
2010 Touareg TDI
2017 Giulia Ti Sport Q4, Trofeo, Leather package(red), 19X8, 19X9.

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