Changing 164 master cylinder/bleeding brakes - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #1 of 81 (permalink) Old 08-01-2006, 10:34 AM Thread Starter
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Changing 164 master cylinder/bleeding brakes

Well, again it is hottest day of year but I got started changing my 1991 164 12v V6 brake master cylinder 60760126.

My car is a non-ABS so there are four brake lines going to master cylinder instead of two on ABS models. Same master cylinder used on all 12v V6 164B/L/S models but L and S models have ABS so bottom two master cylinder ports are plugged on those models and two top port lines go to ABS pump and then the four brake lines go from ABS pump to brakes.

Shop manual makes it sound simple HOWEVER COMMA they fail to mention some dissassembly of engine compartment is required to even see master cylinder.

To make it easy on myself I removed the following first:

1. Air cleaner top with air flow meter and bottom including mounting support after I unbolted cruise control actuator from support.

Note models with ABS will have more brake lines running forward to pump as shown in last pictures.

2. Drained engine coolant and removed coolant tank.

3. Removed AFM inlet corragated tube from throttle body.

4. Disconnected heater hoses from engine and coolant tank tee fitting.

5. Sucked fluid out of brake reservoir with vac pump brake bleeder kit.

6. Disconnected brake reservoir from body mount and disconnected hydraulic clutch master cylinder fuild supply hose from reservoir (port blocked off on A/T models). I left supply hoses from reservoir to brake master hooked up.

7. Loosened/disconnected steel brake lines from master cylinder with 11mm brake line flare nut wrench.

8. Removed two 13mm nuts and star washers holding master to brake booster and broke vacuum by pulling on master cyllinder.

9. Removed master with reservoir and lines as one unit and retrieved vacuum booster o-ring for face of master cylinder from front of booster (Major item to account for).

10. Removed hose and elbows from old master with reservoir attached.

11. Cleaned out reservoir and hoses with brake clean spray solvent and blow dryed with compressed air hose nozzle.

12. Installed elbows, hoses and reservoir to new master cylinder and installed new brake booster sealing o-ring on face of master cylinder in machined groove. Note on ABS models install two steel plugs from old master to new master bottom two ports.

13.Reinstall master, washers and attaching nuts loosely.

14. Hooked up and clamped clutch master supply line to brake master (NA A/T models) and reclamped reservoir to body.

15. Carefully started all two or four steel brake lines (depending on non-ABS or ABS set up). Once all line flare nuts started in master cylinder ports and turn easily tighten two 13mm mounting nuts to booster and then tighten brake line nuts with 11mm wrench and finish final tightening with flare nut wrench.

16. Filled reservoir with good grade fresh brake fluid DOT 3/4 such as Castrol LMA or Pennzoil super heavy duty which has a minimum 448F boiling point and a wet boiling point of over 311F.

17. I used a Actron Europe automatic brake and clutch bleeder kit CP4062 from UK I bought from www.ipdusa.com IPD Volvo # 4062. It uses air pressure from front tire to pressurize system.

18. I bled clutch slave first since feed port of clutch is higher in reservoir than brake ports.

19. Next I bleed two front brakes and then jacked up rear body under trunk and then jacked up both rear suspesnions under trailing arm pivot points under rear struts to keep rear brake proportioning valve in weight on wheels configuration and then bleed rear brakes.

20. Reinstalled wheels and torqued lug bolts to 75 ft lbs.

21. To be continued as temp is 97 and heat index is now 105 and tomorrow is another day.
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Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Lakeland, Florida
Virginia Beach, Virginia
AROC 164 Tech Advisor

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Alfa Semi-Daily driver: USA model - BB2 1991 164S Black Beauty II ALFISTO [U]

[U] BB1 1991 164L w/S engine and A/T now excess to inventory [U]

Daily driver and parts hauler but not car hauler 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4.7L H.O. V-8

"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"

Last edited by Alfisto Steve; 04-29-2007 at 04:37 AM.
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post #2 of 81 (permalink) Old 08-01-2006, 10:46 AM Thread Starter
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Next set of pictures from master cylinder change:
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Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Lakeland, Florida
Virginia Beach, Virginia
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Alfa Semi-Daily driver: USA model - BB2 1991 164S Black Beauty II ALFISTO [U]

[U] BB1 1991 164L w/S engine and A/T now excess to inventory [U]

Daily driver and parts hauler but not car hauler 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4.7L H.O. V-8

"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"
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post #3 of 81 (permalink) Old 08-01-2006, 10:51 AM Thread Starter
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Continued next set of pictures from master cylinder change bleeding brakes:
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Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Lakeland, Florida
Virginia Beach, Virginia
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Alfa Semi-Daily driver: USA model - BB2 1991 164S Black Beauty II ALFISTO [U]

[U] BB1 1991 164L w/S engine and A/T now excess to inventory [U]

Daily driver and parts hauler but not car hauler 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4.7L H.O. V-8

"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"
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post #4 of 81 (permalink) Old 04-28-2007, 07:25 PM
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I went to change my M/C today and since there is almost zero instructions on the cardisc for the procedure, I checked here and found that Alfisto Steve had already posted instructions and insight. Thank you Steve! (once again!) I had a Beck Arnley 072-8900 I had purchased many moons ago on ebay and turns out that I needed it as my brakes have been dragging in hot stop and go traffic a bit. It wasn't hard really or terribly time consuming, as a matter of fact probably the easiest "somewhat major" thing I have done to this car. An observation or two about the Beck Arnley part: seems it is NLA? The original was aluminum (Bendix Italia) and the B/A is cast iron. Has anyone had good or bad luck with the iron one over the aluminum. The box says "Made in Italy" which makes me happy. What is the story with Beck/Arnley in the states, do they just not supply Alfa parts anymore? Seems they only list (ill fitting) brake shims for the 164. What is up with the torque spec on the two mounting nuts at .66 to 1.1 ft lbs? I assume it is because the original M/C is aluminum? Seems like a VERY low torque spec. Didn't IAP have a M/C rebuild kit at one time? I hate to throw the old one in the garbage, it is such a good looking M/C.
Charles

-'91 164L 5 speed (sold sadly) -'04 Volvo XC70 -'97 Mazda Miata -'04 Ford Explorer Eddie Bauer V8 -'07 Honda Odyssey EX-L
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post #5 of 81 (permalink) Old 04-29-2007, 07:51 PM
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Thanks for the step by step Steve, we all appreciate it!

Again the proud owner of the White Dragon and a 2010 Jetta TDI
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post #6 of 81 (permalink) Old 05-05-2007, 11:02 AM
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MC Leak Questions

I posted this under the problem that I was having with a locking rear caliper, but since it is directly related to this thread I thought I would post it here as well.

I have installed the new (to me) master cylinder but not without raising other issues. While removing the heater/coolant tank hose, the plastic "T" cracked where it joins the hose going into the false firewall. Part of the "T" remained in the hose but it crumbled and I was able to get all of the pieces out. This was probably the original piece, so I am not surprised that it was brittle. I ordered a new one.

Examining the supply hoese from the brake/clutch fluid reservoir revealed that they had begun to crack. So I replaced them with 3/8" ID transmission hose I had. They were a little stiff, resulting in some lateral pressure on the fittings on the master cylinder. I thought little of this until I filled the resevoir and attached my power bleeder to it. There was no drama until I pressurized the tank. Where the fittings are attached to the top of the MC, I got a steady leak.

proceeded bleed the clutch (verified 1/2" travel of the clutch arm) and each wheel cylinder. Once the pressure on the resevoir was released the leak appears to stop.

Questions:
1. Is this an issue? The supply hoses are not pressurized under normal operation. If there are no subsequent leaks after bleeding, is it okay?
2. Is it possible thst the new, stiffer supply hoses are the problem by placing lateral pressure on the MC fittings?

Currently Owned:
1957 Giulietta Spider (Maria - Home from the painter!!)
1988 Quadrifoglio (Tony)
1987 BMW 653CSI (Gustav)
2002 VW Passat Wagon V6
2012 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion

Gone, But Not Forgotten:
1966 Giulia Sprint GT
1994 164LS 5-Speed

Working on:
1959 Giulietta Spider - Restoration
1967 Fiat Dino Coupe - Restoration
1967 Duetto - Freshening
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post #7 of 81 (permalink) Old 05-05-2007, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john.harrill View Post
I posted this under the problem that I was having with a locking rear caliper, but since it is directly related to this thread I thought I would post it here as well.

I have installed the new (to me) master cylinder but not without raising other issues. While removing the heater/coolant tank hose, the plastic "T" cracked where it joins the hose going into the false firewall. Part of the "T" remained in the hose but it crumbled and I was able to get all of the pieces out. This was probably the original piece, so I am not surprised that it was brittle. I ordered a new one.

Examining the supply hoese from the brake/clutch fluid reservoir revealed that they had begun to crack. So I replaced them with 3/8" ID transmission hose I had. They were a little stiff, resulting in some lateral pressure on the fittings on the master cylinder. I thought little of this until I filled the resevoir and attached my power bleeder to it. There was no drama until I pressurized the tank. Where the fittings are attached to the top of the MC, I got a steady leak.

proceeded bleed the clutch (verified 1/2" travel of the clutch arm) and each wheel cylinder. Once the pressure on the resevoir was released the leak appears to stop.

Questions:
1. Is this an issue? The supply hoses are not pressurized under normal operation. If there are no subsequent leaks after bleeding, is it okay?
2. Is it possible thst the new, stiffer supply hoses are the problem by placing lateral pressure on the MC fittings?
You may have sealed them or you may get a bit of weeping. See if you can replace the hoses with new or shorten them so they don't put pressure on the fittings and deform the gaskets so they end of really leaking later.

Jason


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post #8 of 81 (permalink) Old 05-05-2007, 12:34 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john.harrill View Post
I posted this under the problem that I was having with a locking rear caliper, but since it is directly related to this thread I thought I would post it here as well.

I have installed the new (to me) master cylinder but not without raising other issues. While removing the heater/coolant tank hose, the plastic "T" cracked where it joins the hose going into the false firewall. Part of the "T" remained in the hose but it crumbled and I was able to get all of the pieces out. This was probably the original piece, so I am not surprised that it was brittle. I ordered a new one.
John I just cut out that molded tee out of equation and save all three rubber hoses attached to it and install 60510088 the original metal tee fitting used in early models.

Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Lakeland, Florida
Virginia Beach, Virginia
AROC 164 Tech Advisor

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Alfa Semi-Daily driver: USA model - BB2 1991 164S Black Beauty II ALFISTO [U]

[U] BB1 1991 164L w/S engine and A/T now excess to inventory [U]

Daily driver and parts hauler but not car hauler 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4.7L H.O. V-8

"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"

Last edited by Alfisto Steve; 05-05-2007 at 12:37 PM.
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post #9 of 81 (permalink) Old 05-05-2007, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisto Steve View Post
John I just cut out that molded tee out of equation and save all three rubber hoses attached to it and install 60510088 the original metal tee fitting used in early models.
The hose I ordered comes with the tee fitting.

As for the leaking from the reservoir: I have some 3/8" SAE 30R6, although it is fuel line.

Currently Owned:
1957 Giulietta Spider (Maria - Home from the painter!!)
1988 Quadrifoglio (Tony)
1987 BMW 653CSI (Gustav)
2002 VW Passat Wagon V6
2012 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion

Gone, But Not Forgotten:
1966 Giulia Sprint GT
1994 164LS 5-Speed

Working on:
1959 Giulietta Spider - Restoration
1967 Fiat Dino Coupe - Restoration
1967 Duetto - Freshening
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post #10 of 81 (permalink) Old 05-05-2007, 01:35 PM
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...I forgot to add that with the first round of bleeding, the old fluid was the color of iced tea. I bled until it ran clear.

I have a solid-feeling brake pedal (without engine vacuum).

Currently Owned:
1957 Giulietta Spider (Maria - Home from the painter!!)
1988 Quadrifoglio (Tony)
1987 BMW 653CSI (Gustav)
2002 VW Passat Wagon V6
2012 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion

Gone, But Not Forgotten:
1966 Giulia Sprint GT
1994 164LS 5-Speed

Working on:
1959 Giulietta Spider - Restoration
1967 Fiat Dino Coupe - Restoration
1967 Duetto - Freshening
john.harrill is online now  
post #11 of 81 (permalink) Old 05-05-2007, 06:42 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john.harrill View Post
...I forgot to add that with the first round of bleeding, the old fluid was the color of iced tea. I bled until it ran clear.

I have a solid-feeling brake pedal (without engine vacuum).
Our AROC chapter MAARC conducts driving schools and one of their requirements on pre-school inspection form is that you flush/bleed brakes.

I started first school in 1997 and have been trying to bled brakes and replace fluid once every year or so. I am still on my original brake and clutch master cylinders on My Originale now with 187,000 miles, but I did have to replace clutch slave some years ago.

I also try to flush coolant system and power steering about every two years.

It is hard to do when you have a bunch of vehicles to maintain be a good maintenance practice. I need to redo my wife's Jeep tranny, coolant and brake fluids this spring. We are pushing 209,000 miles on original master cylinder, tranny and engine but second water pump.

Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Lakeland, Florida
Virginia Beach, Virginia
AROC 164 Tech Advisor

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Alfa Semi-Daily driver: USA model - BB2 1991 164S Black Beauty II ALFISTO [U]

[U] BB1 1991 164L w/S engine and A/T now excess to inventory [U]

Daily driver and parts hauler but not car hauler 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4.7L H.O. V-8

"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"
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post #12 of 81 (permalink) Old 05-05-2007, 08:18 PM
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Steve, where did you get that brake bleeder kit? I cannot find it on the volvo website.

'69 1750 GTV - XC70 Q4
'88 Spider Veloce
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post #13 of 81 (permalink) Old 05-05-2007, 08:23 PM Thread Starter
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I don't think they sell it anymore. It is a UK item. Need to google it under Actron.

Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Lakeland, Florida
Virginia Beach, Virginia
AROC 164 Tech Advisor

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Alfa Semi-Daily driver: USA model - BB2 1991 164S Black Beauty II ALFISTO [U]

[U] BB1 1991 164L w/S engine and A/T now excess to inventory [U]

Daily driver and parts hauler but not car hauler 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4.7L H.O. V-8

"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"
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post #14 of 81 (permalink) Old 05-06-2007, 05:49 AM
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A great tool.

I broke down and bought one of the Power Bleeders that IAP sells, after doing a little reading. It's the same principle: only the pressure is supplied by a plunger/pump on the device in stead of one of the tires.

Whichever you use, this is a great way to bleed hydralic circuits. Simple add adequate fluid, apply the pressure to the reservoir, then open the bleed screws until the fluid runs clean and the bubbles stop.

Currently Owned:
1957 Giulietta Spider (Maria - Home from the painter!!)
1988 Quadrifoglio (Tony)
1987 BMW 653CSI (Gustav)
2002 VW Passat Wagon V6
2012 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion

Gone, But Not Forgotten:
1966 Giulia Sprint GT
1994 164LS 5-Speed

Working on:
1959 Giulietta Spider - Restoration
1967 Fiat Dino Coupe - Restoration
1967 Duetto - Freshening
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post #15 of 81 (permalink) Old 05-07-2007, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
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I don't think they sell it anymore. It is a UK item. Need to google it under Actron.
Tried it, but not much luck. Was the special cap that goes on the brake fluid reservoir included?

'69 1750 GTV - XC70 Q4
'88 Spider Veloce
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