24V Timing Belt Questions - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #1 of 114 (permalink) Old 06-19-2006, 05:04 AM Thread Starter
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24V Timing Belt Questions

Group,
Well, I need only for the timing belt itself to arrive and I will have the necessary things to tackle the timing belt on the 94 LS. I spent the weekend reading the Cardisc and the TSBs. I have a couple of questions, though:

1. I have read that a good substite for the tensioner locking pin is a 'Welding Rod'. What kind of welding rod? Where do I get them?
2. Many thanks to Alfisto Steve for lending me the cam locks. My question is: once the timing belt covers are off and the engine is moved to TDC, should I then lock the cams, knowing that the rear exhaust cam has slipped? Or should I simply set the engine at TDC, remove the belt, and then lock the cams?
3. Is there another source for a 41MM socket to turn the crank?
4. Why does the manual forbid the use of a ratchet when setting the engine on TDC?
5. Is the belt tension set with the cam locks on or off?

Based on my (limited) understanding of the process, here is how I think I should approach it:
  • Gain access to the timing belt (Remove serp belt, H2O pump, covers, crank sensor, etc.)
  • Remove the induction stuff and cam covers.
  • Bring the engine to top-dead center (TDC).
  • Remove the timing belt.
  • Install the cam locks.
  • Put on the new belt.
  • Set the tensioner, as described in the TSBs.
  • Rotate the engine and check the timing.
  • Rotate the engine and check the timing.
  • Rotate the engine and check the timing.
  • Take a Valium.
  • Rotate the engine and check the timing.
  • Reassemble.

Is this the correct approach?

Currently Owned:
1957 Giulietta Spider (Maria - Home from the painter!!)
1988 Quadrifoglio (Tony)
1987 BMW 653CSI (Gustav)
2002 VW Passat Wagon V6
2012 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion

Gone, But Not Forgotten:
1966 Giulia Sprint GT
1994 164LS 5-Speed

Working on:
1959 Giulietta Spider - Restoration
1967 Fiat Dino Coupe - Restoration
1967 Duetto - Freshening
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post #2 of 114 (permalink) Old 06-19-2006, 07:41 AM
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Uhhh, remove the cam locks before rotating the engine to check the timing, and I'ld opt for Scotch over Valium.
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post #3 of 114 (permalink) Old 06-19-2006, 08:38 AM
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John hold those thoughts but let me get you the procedure to make it easy on you. Do not take time belt off yet believe me it is better to set up engine at TDC with sparkplugs out and try to install timing dies so you know how many cams are in time with belt still on. I am overcome by events today so can't detail it out have a scotch and relax right now.

Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA
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[U] BB1 1991 164L w/S engine and A/T now excess to inventory [U]

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post #4 of 114 (permalink) Old 06-19-2006, 09:07 AM Thread Starter
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Timing

No problem.

I have to be able to carry more than one passenger (My transportation during the 164's down time is a spider) for another couple of days.

Currently Owned:
1957 Giulietta Spider (Maria - Home from the painter!!)
1988 Quadrifoglio (Tony)
1987 BMW 653CSI (Gustav)
2002 VW Passat Wagon V6
2012 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion

Gone, But Not Forgotten:
1966 Giulia Sprint GT
1994 164LS 5-Speed

Working on:
1959 Giulietta Spider - Restoration
1967 Fiat Dino Coupe - Restoration
1967 Duetto - Freshening
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post #5 of 114 (permalink) Old 06-20-2006, 05:00 AM Thread Starter
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The Players are all here.

I now have all the parts on site to replace the timing belt. The only additional pieces that I might need are idlers, and I will assess them once the old belts are off. Again, here is my proposed approach:
  • Gain access to the timing belt (Remove serp belt, H2O pump, covers, crank sensor, etc.)
  • Remove the induction stuff and cam covers.
  • Bring the engine to top-dead center (TDC).
  • Remove the timing belt.
  • Install the cam locks.
  • Put on the new belt.
  • Set the tensioner, as described in the TSBs.
  • Remove the cam locks.
  • Rotate the engine and check the timing.
  • Rotate the engine and check the timing.
  • Rotate the engine and check the timing.
  • Rotate the engine and check the timing.
  • Reassemble.

Are there any alternative sources for the 41 mm socket? I can get a 1 5/8 most anywhere, however finding a thin wall is a challenge....

Currently Owned:
1957 Giulietta Spider (Maria - Home from the painter!!)
1988 Quadrifoglio (Tony)
1987 BMW 653CSI (Gustav)
2002 VW Passat Wagon V6
2012 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion

Gone, But Not Forgotten:
1966 Giulia Sprint GT
1994 164LS 5-Speed

Working on:
1959 Giulietta Spider - Restoration
1967 Fiat Dino Coupe - Restoration
1967 Duetto - Freshening
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post #6 of 114 (permalink) Old 06-20-2006, 08:35 AM
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Reply To Your 24v Tb Steps

REPLY TO YOUR 24V TB STEPS
Quote:
Originally Posted by john.harrill
I now have all the parts on site to replace the timing belt. The only additional pieces that I might need are idlers, and I will assess them once the old belts are off. Again, here is my proposed approach:
  • DISABLE ALARM AND DISCONNECT BATTERY
  • Gain access to the timing belt (Remove serp belt BUT FIRST HAVE DRIFT PIN RIG TO FIT SERP BELT TENSIONER, LOOSEN BOLTS IN POWER STEERING AND WATER PUMP PULLEYS WITH BELT STILL TENSIONED, LOOSEN SERP BELT TENSIONER COMPRESS TENSIONER AND HOLD IT AS YOU REMOVE SERP BELT THEN INSERT RIG PIN IN TENSION TO HOLD LOCKED, REMOVE POWER STEERING PULLEY, REMOVE TENSIONER AND BRACKET TO GAIN ACCESSS TO TIMING BELT TENSIONER. H2O pump, covers, crank sensor, etc.) REMOVE TOP DOG BONE ENGINE MOUNT, REMOVE LEFT INNER FENDER LINER, SUPPORT TRANNY ON JACK REMOVE TRANNY MOUNT AND LOWER TRANNY ONTO SUBFRAME TO GET MORE CLEARANCE TO WORK ON REMOVING TIMING BELT COVERS (THIS DROPS ENGINE AWAY FROM CHASSIS SO YOU CAN REMOVE TIMING BELT COVERS AND GET TO CAM PULLEYS ETC EASIER.
  • Remove the induction stuff and cam covers. COLOR CODE/TAG ALL SENSOR CONNECTORS BOTH SIDES BEFORE DISCONNECTING. IF 95 REMOVE EGR TUBE BAJO FITTING AT EXHAUST MANIFOLD AND EGR VALVE ATTACHING NUTS AT INTAKE. WATCH HOW BRAKE BOOSTER BANJO FITTING IS ASSEMBLED (MANY CRUSH WASHERS.
  • Bring the engine to top-dead center (TDC). REMOVE SPARK PLUGS
  • DO NOT Remove the timing belt YET.
  • Install the cam locks. IF THEY ALL WON'T FIT HOLD CAM PULLEY THAT IS OUT OF TIME WITH SPANNER AND LOOSEN NUT AND KNOCK PULLEY OFF TAPER WITH BRASS MALLET AND HAVE WRENCH ON FLAT SPOT ON MIS TIMED CAM TO HOLD IT/TURN IT SO CAM TIMING DIE WILL FIT.
    NOW CHECK TENSIONER AND SEE IS IT IS IN PROPER POSITION TO INSERT 1/16" "WELDING ROD/DRILL ROD" IF SO INSERT ROD THROUGH TENSIONER AND PISTON RIG PIN HOLES. YOU NEED TO HAVE WEIGHTED TENSIONING TOOL PINS IN TENSIONER ECCENTRIC TO LIFT TENSIONER AS YOU LOOSEN HOLD DOWN NUT SO IF YOU NEED TO SLOWLY COMPRESS TENSIONER TO GET RIG PIN IN YOU CAN. iF YOU CAN'T YOU WILL NEED TO REMOVE TENSIONER FROM ENGINE AND COMPRESS IT IN A VISE TO GET RIG PIN (DRILL ROD INSTALLED.
  • Put on the new belt.
  • Set the tensioner, as described in the TSBs.
  • Remove the cam locks.
  • Rotate the engine and check the timing.
  • Rotate the engine and check the timing.
  • Rotate the engine and check the timing.
  • Rotate the engine and check the timing.
  • Reassemble.

Are there any alternative sources for the 41 mm socket? I can get a 1 5/8 most anywhere, however finding a thin wall is a challenge....

Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA
AROC 164 Tech Advisor

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Alfa Semi-Daily driver: USA model - BB2 1991 164S Black Beauty II ALFISTO [U]

[U] BB1 1991 164L w/S engine and A/T now excess to inventory [U]

Daily driver and parts hauler but not car hauler 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4.7L H.O. V-8

"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"
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post #7 of 114 (permalink) Old 06-20-2006, 08:37 AM
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I Don't Think You Need The Thin Wall Socket I Used The Regular The 1 5/8" Sears Socket

Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA
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Alfa Semi-Daily driver: USA model - BB2 1991 164S Black Beauty II ALFISTO [U]

[U] BB1 1991 164L w/S engine and A/T now excess to inventory [U]

Daily driver and parts hauler but not car hauler 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4.7L H.O. V-8

"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"
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post #8 of 114 (permalink) Old 06-20-2006, 09:28 AM Thread Starter
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Excellent!

Great!
Thanks for the description. I'll begin in the next couple of days. I have budgeted around 2 weeks for the job. I want to take the necessary time to get it right.

I plan the take notes and photos to chronicle the job.

Currently Owned:
1957 Giulietta Spider (Maria - Home from the painter!!)
1988 Quadrifoglio (Tony)
1987 BMW 653CSI (Gustav)
2002 VW Passat Wagon V6
2012 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion

Gone, But Not Forgotten:
1966 Giulia Sprint GT
1994 164LS 5-Speed

Working on:
1959 Giulietta Spider - Restoration
1967 Fiat Dino Coupe - Restoration
1967 Duetto - Freshening
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post #9 of 114 (permalink) Old 06-20-2006, 11:39 AM
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I have 24v TB process notes in my steno book and pictures but no time to really write it up correctly. My wife says I try to spend to much time tech writing and not enough enjoying the family so I am writing this while playing Mr. Mom. Have a couple free hours now as I let my daughter go to movie matinee today. Summer vacation is going to cramp my style but family has to come first.

Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA
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Alfa Semi-Daily driver: USA model - BB2 1991 164S Black Beauty II ALFISTO [U]

[U] BB1 1991 164L w/S engine and A/T now excess to inventory [U]

Daily driver and parts hauler but not car hauler 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4.7L H.O. V-8

"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"
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post #10 of 114 (permalink) Old 06-20-2006, 01:26 PM Thread Starter
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Family

I understand completely.

The reason I am waiting for a couple of days to start is that I have to provide transportation for my daughters (dance class) until Friday.
I can't be without a car that carries more that two people until then......

I think I have enough to get started.

Currently Owned:
1957 Giulietta Spider (Maria - Home from the painter!!)
1988 Quadrifoglio (Tony)
1987 BMW 653CSI (Gustav)
2002 VW Passat Wagon V6
2012 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion

Gone, But Not Forgotten:
1966 Giulia Sprint GT
1994 164LS 5-Speed

Working on:
1959 Giulietta Spider - Restoration
1967 Fiat Dino Coupe - Restoration
1967 Duetto - Freshening
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post #11 of 114 (permalink) Old 06-20-2006, 03:53 PM
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Email me as needed for info I will try to transpose my steno notes to a word document time permitting, too.

Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA
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Alfa Semi-Daily driver: USA model - BB2 1991 164S Black Beauty II ALFISTO [U]

[U] BB1 1991 164L w/S engine and A/T now excess to inventory [U]

Daily driver and parts hauler but not car hauler 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4.7L H.O. V-8

"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"

Last edited by Alfisto Steve; 06-29-2006 at 06:53 PM.
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post #12 of 114 (permalink) Old 06-20-2006, 04:24 PM
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I love fact filled threads like this.

Steve, how close/far are you from Baltimore?
Im gonna be in there on July 17th to the 22nd picking up an alfa and i owe you a few cold ones for past and future help.

Enough hijacking from me, continue on with the 24v project.
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post #13 of 114 (permalink) Old 06-20-2006, 07:37 PM
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I guess from Difatta about 261.03 miles. I would come down eastern shore and across bay bridge to VB so maybe a bit less that way.

Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA
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Alfa Semi-Daily driver: USA model - BB2 1991 164S Black Beauty II ALFISTO [U]

[U] BB1 1991 164L w/S engine and A/T now excess to inventory [U]

Daily driver and parts hauler but not car hauler 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4.7L H.O. V-8

"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"
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post #14 of 114 (permalink) Old 06-23-2006, 05:11 AM Thread Starter
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Access

I will be beginning the timing belt R & R this evening.
Question: Would there be any benefit in removing the passenger-side strut and A-arm for better access to the T-belt?

Currently Owned:
1957 Giulietta Spider (Maria - Home from the painter!!)
1988 Quadrifoglio (Tony)
1987 BMW 653CSI (Gustav)
2002 VW Passat Wagon V6
2012 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion

Gone, But Not Forgotten:
1966 Giulia Sprint GT
1994 164LS 5-Speed

Working on:
1959 Giulietta Spider - Restoration
1967 Fiat Dino Coupe - Restoration
1967 Duetto - Freshening
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post #15 of 114 (permalink) Old 06-23-2006, 10:02 AM
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Just strut assembly - three tops nuts and 4 bottom bolts pops it out as an assembly and helps open up patient nicely.

Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA
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Alfa Semi-Daily driver: USA model - BB2 1991 164S Black Beauty II ALFISTO [U]

[U] BB1 1991 164L w/S engine and A/T now excess to inventory [U]

Daily driver and parts hauler but not car hauler 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4.7L H.O. V-8

"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"
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