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post #1 of 105 (permalink) Old 12-24-2012, 09:21 AM Thread Starter
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Alfa 164 - The genesis...

I had promised you, and here I am for Christmas.

When you want to tell a complex story, as the genesis of the Alfa 164, it is always better to start from the beginning (the very beginning).

The beginnings - First hypothesis of front-wheel drive


The story of the first Alfa Romeo saloon with front wheel drive, has its roots in the second half of the Seventies.
In fact, at that time the idea was very different.
Alfa Romeo engineers were working under the direction of the engineer Filippo Surace.
The engineer Domenico Chirico, in his book "L'Alfa e le sue auto", recalls a small document, which became a dossier in 1981, entitled "Choices of setting cars 154 and 156".

These two cars were to be the heirs of Giulietta and Alfetta, respectively.
The main consideration was that the two cars would have to replace the project 116 (Alfetta and Giulietta) sharing among them several components in order to lower costs.

The new projects included a review of the four-cylinder engine, which was considered obsolete, and even manufacturing equipment should be shared as much as possible between the two segments.

Consequently, the decision to design together the two families of models, with the prediction to use this platform also for the sports derivations of the two cars.

Regarding the engines were expected to be:
-revise the design of the four-cylinder engine, having already under testing new heads that gave good results and would arrive until several years later, called Twin Spark
-use the brand new V-6 cylinder “Busso”
-rely on the 4 and 5 cylinder VM regarding Diesel, because VM (as well as Alfa Romeo) was under the control of Finmeccanica (IRI, which means Istituto per la Ricostruzione Industriale – Institute for Industrial Reconstruction – which means the Italian Government...).

The studies established the need to have a six-speed gearbox, for optimal reduction in consumption in highway driving, and give to the cars shorter ratios from 1 to 5, to preserve the Alfa Romeo soul.
Were expected car wider than Giulietta and Alfetta, to give a more comfort to the third rear passenger.
Even the length was increasing, to allow a greater longitudinal habitability.

This project, in short, spoke of lengths of 4.25 meters for the 154 and 4.5 meters for the 156.
(Warning: this “156” code has nothing to do with the saloon born in 1997 ).

Regarding the Cx coefficient is thought to be on the 0.36 ... but the launch of the new Audi 100 declaring a 0.30 did think about getting to work more on this matter.
So we were in 1980, and things seemed to be moving in the right direction; as an example, the chassis sector had come to order the construction of parts for the six-speed gearbox, with a view to a beginning of testing.

Unfortunately today we have nothing to see about the 154, while the 156 was built, at the beninning as a maquette for the wind tunnel, and then in some real cars, spotted by Italian magazine Quattroruote some months later.

When Quattroruote spotted these cars, history had already changed. The body was similar to project 156, but under the body....





... things were bound to change. In 1981, in the Lancia palace in Torino, there was a meeting between Surace and engineers Camuffo and Scolari from Fiat Group (respectively Lancia Division and Head of Engineering).

What had happened?

A big “NO” from the Italian Government

In Alfa they were sure that the 154 and 156 would die before birth, when the minister Marcora (during a radio interview) had declared that “the government would never have supported anyone for building cars of this kind, for a market already saturated and too small.”

In short, there was no money to build new sedans without outside help. As a result, Alfa Romeo could not realize new rear wheel drive cars.
The project 156 died.

That day in Turin, Mr. Surace received the general characteristics of a vehicle, by the acronym T4 (Tipo Quattro – Type Four), intended to be the basis for most cars. A Fiat (Croma), a Lancia (Thema) and the car later known as Saab 9000.
(in fact, the real deal began between Lancia and Saab, Fiat Croma was a subsequent derivation. It was based on studies of bodywork developed during the design of the Lancia Thema)

A few days after that meeting, Alfa Romeo received the Fiat file in which it was specified that the car, front-wheel drive, was 4.53 meters long with a wheelbase of 2.66. It was already tested by Lancia (the marketing was scheduled for the spring of 1984), and you can see the mules in pictures below.





(the Lancia T4 was also known as “project Y9”)

Let's go back to the Fiat file, in which were provided four-cylinder petrol engines 1600 (which came only on Croma, although some Thema with 1600 engine were built at prototype level ), 2000 and 2500 Diesel.

In the drawings (in small scale) they could see the layout of the engine, front and rear suspension, of the steering wheel and pedal position, and other details.
Alfa engineers should check installability of their engines on the T4 body, but for confidentiality reasons , Lancia asked that these checks were carried out in Torino at its Research Centre.
From the first experiments, the Alfa Romeo engineers noticed immediately that the engines could not be installed in a longitudinal position, and the installation in a transverse position would entail high costs.

There was a big difference of shape between the T4 and the 156 (already set stylistically and, in addition, the engineering and the study of the six-speed gearbox was already at an advanced stage).
The roof of the T4 was 45 mm higher, and the hood of the 156 was significantly lower and differently inclined.
Not appear possible to adopt the 156 bonnet profile because the T4 front suspension (McPherson) was too high; also, the height of the Alfa six-cylinder (installed in a transverse position, as we have said) was too high, trying to match the engine position with the bonnet profile.

(We must thank this. For that reason they decided to make the "restyling" of the engine, which gave us the wonderful beauty of the intake chrome. The original longitudinal V-6 was not so cool to see.)

About the front suspension was chosen to adopt the Alfasud layout, that had already allowed to obtain a very low profile hood for the Alfasud Sprint. In this way the hood would have been only 7 mm higher than the original 156.

The problem was that this would entail a certain dissimilarity of parts in the front of the platform made in Torino.
There were discussions between the headquarters of the two companies, but in the end the problem was resolved.
Mr. Chirico, I keep mentioning how wonderful source, remember that was an increased cost per car of 7500 italian Lire, for this change.

We have to add that the modification of the layout of the intake manifolds, there was some loss of power, due to the new curvature of the ducts.

This and other reasons led to the need for considerable investment in money, and born of a joint working group between the factories.
In 1982 came an agreement about parts production; in Arese were made​​:
-metal sheets for platforms
-supporting frames for engines
-part of the suspension
-the hubs of the wheels
-structures of the seats and other details.

Meanwhile, the press began to report the news of the agreement.
In the article that I report below, many details were wrong; we have to consider that it was rumors.
However, I report as a historical document.




Later, Fiat began to lavish private drawings that were jealously guarded until now, and to Arese came the first two chassis for the realization of the first mechanized mannequins for the car that had taken the name “Project 164”.

Now they need the new body, and Pininfarina was called as a stylist for an outside proposal; he worked in parallel with the Centro Stile Alfa.
At the end of 1983 they were ready the two projects, Centro Stile Alfa (Chief Designer Mr. Ermanno Cressoni) and Pininfarina.

In comparison that was organized between the two proposals, the winner was Pininfarina. The proposal by the Centro Stile Alfa Romeo was basically a rehash of the "156".

At this point, we must deepen the story.
We will do it with the following text.

But first I want to point out a fact.

In the mid-'80s, in Italy there was a little confusion about the body that would have the future Alfa Romeo saloon.
This happened because the first prototypes went on the road, were built with the body of the "156" changed to allow the construction on Lancia T4 platform.

At that time, (I mean when it was decided to change the frame) Alfa Romeo had already started studying for the production of sheet metal and related equipment (tooling) for the project 156.
Time and effort wasted. But they could make a profit from this, and that was to build prototypes in a short time, to start with testing.
For this reason, 164 started testing with the shape of a car that would never be born.





Tomorrow we'll be back to talk about style.

Merry Christmas, guys.
Merry Christmas, 164.

Paolo
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post #2 of 105 (permalink) Old 12-24-2012, 10:20 AM
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Grazie mille, Paolo, very interesting! Looking forward to the rest of the story. Merry Christmas to you too.

Dave Spiegelthal, Centreville, VA
'91 164S, '79 Alfetta GT, '85 Fiat X1/9, '71 Fiat 850 Spider
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post #3 of 105 (permalink) Old 12-24-2012, 01:13 PM
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If only the story could end with a mass produced 4 wheel drive version

1964 Giulia Sprint GT 1991 164 S President New York Alfa Romeo Owners Club
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post #4 of 105 (permalink) Old 12-26-2012, 09:42 AM Thread Starter
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Grazie mille, Paolo, very interesting! Looking forward to the rest of the story. Merry Christmas to you too.
Thanks DSpieg!

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Originally Posted by alfaholico View Post
If only the story could end with a mass produced 4 wheel drive version
I totally agree.

Ok, let's go to talk about style.
At that time, the most important italian car design magazine wrote:

“There is no doubt. The front end with that shield that seems to leap out at you from the bodywork recalling times gone by, that seems to be biting the lip-like bumper, is undoubtely Alfa.
The side brings back that movement which was violent, overloaded and showy on the Giulia, forgotten on the Alfetta, rationalized by the line broken into three on the 33 and put in the shade by the big plastic strip of the 75-Milano.
Movement that finds the strength to extend to the front and back, it being even more swollen and haughty with its much understaded lights.”


This, in a word at first glance, is the 164. A car that Vittorio Ghidella (R.I.P.) does not hesitate to define as “wonderful”, the “modern expression of the sports-sedan concept”.

The story takes us back to the first drawings done by the Centro Stile Alfa Romeo in 1980. Some days ago, I wrote about the first prototypes presented as scoops in Quattroruote that embodied the appearance of the model as envisaged by the Centro Stile, directed by Ermanno Cressoni.

As we can see in the pictures, that car was not particularly refined, and perhaps not so beautiful. But we must say that it was a pretty rough work, which was later refined, as they passed from one platform to another and the competition with Pininfarina entered in the climax.

Experts in the field still consider that design to be very beautiful, so much so that top management was to find the choice, which ended up falling on the Pininfarina proposal, a most difficult one.

In the words of Cressoni (R.I.P.):

“The motifs we had attempted to illustrate the car with were the same ones expressed by Pininfarina, being that the point was to tell the story of a company through a product that would then have had to move on the road.
I would say that we were a bit like Carl Lewis and Ben Johnson; we raced them, we missed first place by a hair, we set a world record and we were beaten by those who had to lower the world record to beat us. I think that this is one of the most important functions a company' style center has: to be a winner, because everyone wants to win, but especially to be a stimulus for the outside coachbuilder who is the company's direct opponent at that moment.
If this happens, the result is that the company finds itself deciding between highly qualified products.”


Back to the story.
The first Pininfarina drawing traces back to 1981. It had sketched over a traditional rear-drive mechanical assembly for a slightly shorter car, under four and a half meters long. The project was called 156 (and this we have already said), and it was for a car separate from the so-called “Type 4” project (and we already said... I'm just summarizing).

At that point the car project came into play, changing the architecture of the car completely, but not modifying its basic look.
(both designers then transported their ideas on the new platform)
The idea to design something aggressive, with very taut, almost horizontal lines and a drooping nose, was maintained.
This meant that, appearance-wise, the car underwent no changes during the development of the project, even with a complete rearrangement of the engineering assembly.
The joint venture idea took off from a modern concept of synergy, especially as regard mechanical components. On the other hand, only the existence of synergies aimed at cutting costs would have enabled Alfa Romeo to plan the construction of a brand new model in its upper range.
In particular, the car foresaw the sharing of floorpans and trasmission and suspension parts. It did not, however, limit the doors, whose identity on the Thema, Croma and 9000 derives from a Fiat design that had been accepted by Saab. And the 164?

In the words of Leonardo Fioravanti, engineer, managing director and general manager of the Pininfarina Study and Research Center of Cambiano:

“None of the exterior sheet metal is in common with the other cars in the Type 4 project. There are similar touches, such as the doors that cover the A-pillar and extend up to the roof.
Some parts being standardized and others created ad hoc. For example, common seat structures and climate control (that bastard climate control ) systems were used, while the front suspensions were tailor-made for the 164, as well as part of the floorpan.”


At the base of the Pininfarina design was the desire to recover the best Alfa image, that of the 1900 and the first Giulietta, that had fadded in time.
Having abandoned the shield an trilobal front end, Alfa had taken refuge in a big, anonymous radiator grille which held the emblem (the best example is Alfa 33...).

In the words of Enrico Fumia (engineer and manager in charge of models and prototypes at Pininfarina):

“In the context of a necessarily modern car, we wanted to resume some themes, repropose some of the typical details of the beautiful Alfas of the past, such as the coat of arms that comes out from the frame of the shield and the shield itself that seems to bite the bumper”.

“All this”, Fioravanti steps into say, “without indulging in nostalgia or rehashing old ideas. Connecting up to the past does not imply copying, rather, it means mantaining the spirit. It is and undertaking for the total recovery of the Alfa image, not just a work of front end graphics”.

But what was the underlying concept in the design of old Alfas?

“That of essentially being made of sheet metal”, replies Fioravanti. “An Alfa Romeo offered a considerable surface area of sheet metal, and non-trasparent parts treated in such a way to be light; a car full but not heavy.
Nevertheless, while this could have appealed to car lovers, people had to be able to appreciate it through simpler, more obvious symbols: so we hung the shield from a groove that wraps round the car.”

Its well-proportioned volumes are enhanced by that perimetric groove that closes onto the front shield.
“The shield”, states Fioravanti, “is like a jewel, supported by a necklace (the groove) that encircles the car without interruption”.



The groove, then, is something of a graphic necklace that stands as one of the most characterizing features of this car.
An aesthetical embellishment whose function is to unite the body's perimetric accessories. On the first model, for instance, the door handles were flush, built into the motif of the groove, and in the final version, too, they hide the grip in the same piece.
In the beginning even the fuel tank lid made a stylistic reference to the groove, where it was thought to integrate a slit for the exit of the air that “washes” the engine.

On the first model, the front end sported its turn signals above the headlights on the extension of the groove, connecting up ideally with the shield.

“This idea”, says Fumia, “which we thought and still think to be stylistically sound, at that thime did not give a sufficient guarantee of efficiency.
It was to accentuate what the glass of today's headlights tries to do with a chamfer, or rather, continue the design of the interruption of the side”.


(That's right: If you go to see the glass of the front lights of your 164, you will notice the dihedral, the chamfer in the glass, aligned with the groove. That was the division between the headlight and the turn signals in the original project.
But I can add a personal note, that the words "guarantee of efficiency" was a politically correct statement ... In February, during the first edition of Milano Autoclassica, I met Mr. Fumia during a conference about the 164, and he told me that the idea was rejected for cost reasons only. That kind of headlight was too much expensive... even if Lancia had made it some months later with the second series of Lancia Thema, the “SuperThema”. Only the positions were reversed. Headlights above, turn signals below.)





Following the groove, we go to the back and we find a light bar topped by the coat of arms in what is to be the trademark of the Alfas born later.
We thus see a return to the small light clusters already typical of the 1900 and Giulietta.
“The Alfa top management put up a fair amount of resistance”, explains Fumia, “because this light cluster was thought to be too small. We pushed ourselves to the limits of lighting efficiency a lamp cluster can have.
There is still some disagreement at Alfa due in part to the less than perfect manufacture and quality of the piece, but none of this detracts from the soundness of the design”.

However, the groove does not just serve aesthetical purposes.
Fioravanti points out:
“Its structural functions are most important, as without section planishing sheet metal does not press well. Today, the old Pininfarinas with their smooth, soldered sides would involve considerable pressing problems”.


Ok, that's all for now.
We will resume the discourse by looking at the photos of the various models and sketches created during the evolution of the project.
And later we will have a lot of mules spotted on the street.

Paolo
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post #5 of 105 (permalink) Old 12-26-2012, 01:42 PM
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The shield”, states Fioravanti, “is like a jewel, supported by a necklace (the groove) that encircles the car without interruption”.

Paolo, this is wonderful information. Although your essay illuminates many interesting points, in particular I’ve always wondered about the “necklace” as it seems to me to be a very important design characteristic, one that gives our car its timeless beauty, and an element adapted ad nauseam by many other makers right up to today, and sadly (in my opinion) exaggerated. The 164 design is just so perfectly stated/understated, a lesson in fine taste and modesty. It’s also very nice to know the technical term for the treatment of the headlights (dihedral chamfer), an effect that I feel was partially lost by the introduction of the Bosch projector headlamps and which requires a "filler" strip on the bottom. There are times when I walk by the car, when the sun is just right, that that transition from sheet metal to lens is just so beautiful.
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post #6 of 105 (permalink) Old 12-26-2012, 02:24 PM Thread Starter
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The shield”, states Fioravanti, “is like a jewel, supported by a necklace (the groove) that encircles the car without interruption”.

Paolo, this is wonderful information. Although your essay illuminates many interesting points, in particular I’ve always wondered about the “necklace” as it seems to me to be a very important design characteristic, one that gives our car its timeless beauty, and an element adapted ad nauseam by many other makers right up to today, and sadly (in my opinion) exaggerated. The 164 design is just so perfectly stated/understated, a lesson in fine taste and modesty. It’s also very nice to know the technical term for the treatment of the headlights (dihedral chamfer), an effect that I feel was partially lost by the introduction of the Bosch projector headlamps and which requires a "filler" strip on the bottom. There are times when I walk by the car, when the sun is just right, that that transition from sheet metal to lens is just so beautiful.
I totally agree.

I am very sorry that they did a poor job of integration, when they changed the headlights on face lifting (the European Super).
My headlights are not integrated with the groove. The groove reaches the corner of the fender and ... nothing. There is a kind of (I call it that) "stylistic accident." The headlights of the Super (which I find too small, the right proportions were earlier ones) do not have separate turn signals, which had the right roundness to connect fender and headlights.
There is the end of the fender ... and we find a headlight that seems taken by another car. There is a bad combination at that point.

By the way, during that conference Mr. Fumia showed some images on the big screen, about the 164 coupè and cabrio maquettes. It was a surprise for me, I wasn't ready so I took some bad images with my cell (I was in a bad place to take pics)... but it's better than nothing

Stay tuned... I will upload

As for the 164 ... is simple.
She was (is) just wonderful.

As I wrote in the topic of Alfisto in Padova, in Italy today the 164 are few. It is not very easy to see on the roads. In my area, for example, (talking about a medium valley) were left two (including my own).
So ... sometimes I get out of a store and find some people who watch it. Begin the dialogue, memories, stories .... people who have driven or have only dreamed of.

You know what happens, in most cases? When they greet me and go away ... walk a little, then they turn around, look at her again, and (all) say:

"Oh, guys .. the 164."

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post #7 of 105 (permalink) Old 12-26-2012, 03:07 PM
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I remember the first time I really noticed a 164. I was walking past a new hotel in town in a sunny autumn morning. Parked by the entrance was a pre-Bangle BMW with two kids oozing in awe at what to me was a rather common looking car. Then came a blue 164 Super V6 TB, up the street almost at idle. Oh, the smoothness of that engine! Then the driver revved it a little and I got to see the gorgeous chrome line running to the back. It's such a classy touch. Coming home I mentioned that moment to my brother and he said "these kids don't know a thing about cars". Little did we knew I would end up buying one!

And these days, the parts store owner, having an idle minute, rests his elbow on the counter, looks at my 164 outside and says "I drove one of those when they came out... What a car!"

88 164 2.0 Turbo 4C - (ex) 93 Citroen C15D - 94 Citroen ZX's, 1.4i, (ex) 1.9D - (ex) 96 Citroen Saxo VTS - (ex) 98 Citroen Jumper - 99 MB E220 CDI W210 - 07 Renault Clio dci
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Thank you very much for writing this piece, Paolo. I am enjoying reading it. I have very much also enjoyed looking at the 164 over the years and thought about what must have been going through the minds of its designers and engineers. Now I know a lot more than just what my eyes tell me.
Charles

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post #9 of 105 (permalink) Old 12-26-2012, 07:10 PM
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Quella bella machina.

Ce tutti.

Mi dispiace, escrito Italiano non perfetto.

However, whenever I see my wife drive off in our 1991 Alfa Romeo 164 I always think: que bella. I admit I remain unsure which impels me to think so, after 40 years with the one and 20 years with the other.

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post #10 of 105 (permalink) Old 12-27-2012, 04:24 AM Thread Starter
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Thank you very much for writing this piece, Paolo. I am enjoying reading it. I have very much also enjoyed looking at the 164 over the years and thought about what must have been going through the minds of its designers and engineers. Now I know a lot more than just what my eyes tell me.
Charles
It's a great pleasure for me to share these memories with you all.
In addition, the story has just begun .... we will have yet many things.

As an example, we will discuss the reasons that led to have a dashboard design so special, very rich for the driver and very "clean" in front of the passenger.

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However, whenever I see my wife drive off in our 1991 Alfa Romeo 164 I always think: que bella. I admit I remain unsure which impels me to think so, after 40 years with the one and 20 years with the other.
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post #11 of 105 (permalink) Old 12-27-2012, 05:43 AM
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Very interesting reading. There is so much that goes into building a great automobile. It's fascinating to see how great designers like Sergio Pininfarina think and approach their craft. Likewise, it's neat to see how the engineers compromise and modify things for cost reasons as well as appeasing the designers (and vice versa).

John Stewart
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post #12 of 105 (permalink) Old 12-27-2012, 05:50 AM Thread Starter
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Ok guys, yesterday you have tired your eyes, reading the entire text. Today we rest and look at some pictures.

As we said, the design story started with project 156.

In the following pictures, we see four sketches made ​​by the Centro Stile.

(the first is very strange, is part of a research phase much wider and less defined)









Some pictures from Pininfarina's work for the 156 project.













Next, we have two sketches about the evolution of ideas at the Centro Stile.
They were already working on the T4 platform at that time.





Back to Pininfarina...
In the following pictures, you can see the style transformation during the change of platform.
The first: the actual idea of Pininfarina, for the RWD project (longitudinal engine).
Second, the change of proportions for the new platform.
In the second picture you can see (the back door) the door of the fuel tank, as had been imagined, "combined with the groove."


(1981 )

(1982 )

As we can see, the ideas of Mr. Fumia (the true father of 164) were really clear from the beginning.

And now I take a little break.

I leave you with a personal observation. In the past, many people have asked Mr. Fumia the meaning of the three parallel lines, which run around the car, on the bumpers and side strips made ​​of plastic.



That day in Milan Autoclassica, during the conference, I was with Mr. Giorgio Alisi (in my opinion the best illustrator in the automotive field, about the magazines ... here's an example of his work .... a preview of 164, published by Quattroruote in the spring of 1987)



Mr. Alisi asked to Mr. Fumia the same question.
"Why the 3 lines?? I don't like very much, I think it was an useless heavier style..."
(In truth, I disagree. I like that 3 lines)
Mr. Fumia said: "I did it as a recall of a part of the trilobal Alfa Romeo front end."
He meant this:



In truth, as I said I like the 3 lines, but I never caught the similarity or recall.

And now, break
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Very interesting insights - many thanks

Profiles and front ends seemed to start off very early-80s Peugeot/Subaru and ended up rather more elegant and modern.

That Pininfarina sketch from 1982 is very close to the 164's shape and proportions. Amazing that it was five years before the car would go into production - and nine years before it would be sold in the USA!

-Alex

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post #14 of 105 (permalink) Old 12-27-2012, 08:48 AM
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There is something undefinable about Italian industrial design that is very attractive. We find ourselves drawn to buy Italian made products in preference before we even realize they were Italian. Certainly the interior and exterior styling were major decision factors when I chose the 164 over the then brand new BMW 325. The other was the sublime drive. For a fwd car this 164 is uniquely expressive from behind the wheel. How Alfa made the 164 drive so differently to the SAAB 9000 (of which I have owned two, still retaining the 97 Aero probably the best car SAAB ever made) is truly astounding.

Today, whenever I see that rarity: an Alfa Romeo 164 I remain awestruck by the timeless and forever modern design.
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Originally Posted by AlexGS View Post
Very interesting insights - many thanks

Profiles and front ends seemed to start off very early-80s Peugeot/Subaru and ended up rather more elegant and modern.

That Pininfarina sketch from 1982 is very close to the 164's shape and proportions. Amazing that it was five years before the car would go into production - and nine years before it would be sold in the USA!

-Alex
Hi Alex!

You are right.

In Italy the eighties were characterized by several cars were born (on the tables of design centers) well in advance of their launch.

Good examples can be:

-the Fiat Tipo (1984 design - 1988 launch)
-the Fiat Tempra (1984 design - 1990 launch)
-the Lancia Dedra (1984 design - 1989 launch)

Tipo, Tempra and Dedra (as well as Alfa 155, 145, Delta II, etc. etc.) were part of another big project called Type 2-3.
In truth, in that era Fiat Group was looking very forward, with that big project.
A kind of project that today is usual (more models with the same platform or carry over) but in 80's was a news for Italy.

It 's amazing to think, for example, that the Lancia Dedra style was approved when the Lancia Prisma (which the Dedra was the heir) was launched only a year earlier.

I remember the issue of Quattroruote with the photo of the first prototype of Fiat Tempra (caught at the Fiat test track "La Mandria", near Torino). It was the end of 1985, and the car was caught without camouflage. It was a bit of a shock. For us, the modern car was the Fiat Regata (the 4 door model based on Ritmo --> as known as Strada in USA ) at that time.

For the Lancia Delta 2 is another kind of story. The car was made with Dedra, but the original Delta 1 was so strong on the market (that big amount of glory with World Rally Championship) that Fiat thought to go on for years and years.
The Delta 2, design of 1984 (with changes in 1989-90) was launched at the end of 1992 only.

The Type 2 platform was used for many years.
Conceived in 1983, his latest development has come until 2010, when the Alfa 147 went out of the market, replaced by Giulietta.

But this is another story... We are on Alfabb

(by the way, this is my biggest passion: to discover and collect "behind the scenes"...)
PaoloGTC is offline  
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