Cruise Control Troubleshooting - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old 06-30-2012, 04:28 PM Thread Starter
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Cruise Control Troubleshooting

UPDATE: See downloadable at the bottom of this post for CC Troubleshooting Guide.

Troubleshooting my inop cruise control today. Did the electrical checks specified in the tech order.

All tests normal except:

Test #1 Cruise Control - Volt Test - ECU Connected - Car Static

On the first test Speedo input - gray and lt green wires, key on, voltage was .75v instead of 5.0v


Test #2 Cruise Control - Volt Test - ECU Connected - In Motion

The third test, pink and lt green wires . . . In motion, cruise ON, set button activated had zero volts instead of 12v (in other tests it was ok), and In motion, cruise off, it was also zero volts (normal).


The bad speed sensor input looks suspicious. Is it the same sensor that drives the speedometer? Speedometer has no issues. On the S it looks like the CC input comes out of pin 1A of the Instrument Cluster/Panel. The CDS suspension has no issues either. Come to think of it, it seems the A/C OAT readout doesn't really change when the car gets over 19mph, so I'm suspecting the speed output of the instrument cluster.

Here's a guide to help you troubleshoot your cruise control system.
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File Type: pdf Diagnosis of Cruise Control Faults Ver 1a.pdf (195.9 KB, 817 views)

John Stewart
74 Spider
91 164S

Last edited by Roadtrip; 11-13-2014 at 07:15 PM.
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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-01-2012, 01:52 AM
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See this tech bulletin: Alfa 164 TSB 40.94.01

If you have cardisc CD or DVD you can see the wiring diagram.

I usually find a corroded connection at the CC ECU which is located behind orange air bag ECU under and forward of radio area.

And yes it is same speedo sender used for all these signals.

Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Lakeland, Florida
Virginia Beach, Virginia
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Alfa Semi-Daily driver: USA model - BB2 1991 164S Black Beauty II ALFISTO [U]

[U] BB1 1991 164L w/S engine and A/T now excess to inventory [U]

Daily driver and parts hauler but not car hauler 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4.7L H.O. V-8

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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-01-2012, 06:04 AM Thread Starter
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I have all the wire diagrams, etc.

So, then, the wire colors specified in the test are also incorrect??

The new #1 wire is now Dark Green (vice Lt Green) and it's the ECU Ground?

So that in Test #1 for instance, the test using Pin 3 and Pin 1 should use the Dark Green (new #1) and Orange (new #3)???

I cleaned the connector. there was no corrosion.

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91 164S

Last edited by Roadtrip; 07-01-2012 at 01:56 PM.
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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-01-2012, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadtrip View Post
I have all the wire diagrams, etc.

So, then, the wire colors specified in the test are also incorrect??

The new #1 wire is now Dark Green (vice Lt Green) and it's the ECU Ground?

So that in Test #1 for instance, the test using Pin 3 and Pin 1 should use the Dark Green (new #1) and Orange (new #3)???

I cleaned the connector. there was no corrosion.
I'll take you word for it as I am out of town and away from my printed tech data.

Also be sure both CC switches on pedals are adjusted correctly.

Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Lakeland, Florida
Virginia Beach, Virginia
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Alfa Semi-Daily driver: USA model - BB2 1991 164S Black Beauty II ALFISTO [U]

[U] BB1 1991 164L w/S engine and A/T now excess to inventory [U]

Daily driver and parts hauler but not car hauler 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4.7L H.O. V-8

"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"
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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-01-2012, 02:52 PM Thread Starter
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Ok. There's a bit of a mess and confusion with the 164 Electrical Manuals Here's the problem with the Manuals. The TSB doesn't tell you which manual it applies to.

From what I can see there are four different versions of the 164 Electrical Manuals. At least I personally have four, but there may be more. I haven't looked at my factory bound hardcopies back at home yet.

From AROC Library:

Electrical #4596B Vol 1. This number designation is on the inside page. Applies to all cars 91-93. This manual has two elec diagrams for the cruise control, L & S versions. The cruise control section is located on pages 165-180. ECU connector NOT numbered correctly.


Electrical #4596B Vol 2. Applies to the 40 electrical system covered on cars built before 1 Jul 90. This number designation is on the inside page, although I think it's a type and should be designated "4596C." This manual has only one elec diagrams for the cruise control, L & S versions. The cruise control section is located on pages 51-66. ECU connector NOT numbered correctly.


From CARDISC

Electrical "Early Production" (cars built before 1 Jul 90). No Vol #.PA4596. No "B" designation. One elec diagram of the cruise control. The cruise control section is located on pages 51-61 (not thru 66 like above). Very abbreviated troubleshooting section. ECU connector numbered correctly.

Electrical (cars built after 1 Jul 90). No Vol # This manual has two elec diagrams for the cruise control, L & S versions. The cruise control section is located on pages 165-180. [U]ECU connector numbered correctly.



What I think the TSB is really trying to say is that some versions of the manuals had the connector numbers backwards. Starting from the Lt Green wire on the left side of the connector (as you're looking forward at the CC ECU) should be pin 1. Dark Green wire on end is pin 14.

In addition, the troubleshooting procedures in the TEST A thru TEST G pages were condensed into the four pages titled (font is a little different from manual typeset):

#1 Cruise Control - Volt Test - ECU Connected - Car Static

#2 Cruise Control - Volt Test - ECU Connected - In Motion

#3 Cruise Control - Volt Test - ECU Disconnected - Car Static

#4 Cruise Control - Ohm Meter Tests - ECU Disconnected

John Stewart
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Last edited by Roadtrip; 07-01-2012 at 05:59 PM.
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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-01-2012, 05:57 PM Thread Starter
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I looked at the actuator cable at the foot pedal and found about 3/4" of slack in the cable with the adjuster all the way in the slack position. I assume that it not right and that there should be just enough slack to not interfere with the pedal returning to full up. I finally found the manual page on adjusting it, but it doesn't seem to address the adjuster at the pedal, if it is even and adjuster at all?? I assume the gross adjustment is there with the fine adjustment being done at the actuator.

Here's a picture. Can someone take a look at theirs and give me an idea of how much slack there should be? This may be the problem with my system.
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John Stewart
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Last edited by Roadtrip; 07-01-2012 at 08:03 PM.
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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old 07-04-2012, 06:55 PM Thread Starter
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Cable slack adjusted out to normal. However, CC is still inop. I did the trouble shooting procedure again and still no speed input to Pin 3 (Gray wire) from Instrument Cluster Pin 1A. I also tested the continuity of the wire from the cluster to the CC ECU and it was good, so there's nothing coming out the Instrument Cluster, however the Speedometer/Odometer works fine. Should be 5V with the key switch on to the CC ECU.

Which brings up the question:

Has anyone else seen this or have a cheap easy fix for this?

I see from some really old threads that the pulse signal from the speed sensor is converted into a voltage signal for use by the speedometer and odometer, and I assume the CC as well. So I would conclude that the problem lies in the connection between the D-A converter and the cluster output to the CC ECU.

UPDATE: I believe the AR guidance is incorrect. There will be no voltage from the Speedometer/or sending unit unless the car is moving.

John Stewart
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91 164S

Last edited by Roadtrip; 12-28-2012 at 02:37 PM. Reason: Update
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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old 12-28-2012, 02:30 PM Thread Starter
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To close out this thread, the problem with my Cruise Control was the brake and clutch cutout safety switches, as well as the disconnected CC throttle cable. Takeaway from this is, "check the obvious/simple stuff first."

I have written a short guide for quick troubleshooting the CC system. It believe it covers 98% of the broken systems out there. See post #1 at the bottom to download guide.

John Stewart
74 Spider
91 164S

Last edited by Roadtrip; 06-09-2016 at 09:05 PM.
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post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-27-2018, 11:52 AM
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Is this general guide applicable to the '94-'95 Q cars? Any dramatic changes that wouldn't be obvious by looking through the users manual material?

The car I'll be picking up in a couple weeks has CC inop right now, so I'll be doing this dance before too long.
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post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-27-2018, 12:30 PM
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[QUOTE=Roadtrip;1209946] Takeaway from this is, "check the obvious/simple stuff first."

Check the vacuum. Without it, the connections don't matter.
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post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-27-2018, 12:55 PM
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Cruise Control and Alfa is an oxymoron.
Del likes this.

white '92 164 S (71K)
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post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-27-2018, 01:06 PM
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Exactly. Does not compute. I suspect some owners have gotten soft, lol. If you need cc just buy an ordinary car, but obviously, that's just my opinion.

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6
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post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-27-2018, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Cruise Control and Alfa is an oxymoron.
None of my cruise controls work but like with the headlamp washer apparatus I have never gone there to fix anything.
My Alfa trips are 99% short fast and furious.

I do like cruise control and I use that feature on Trusty Ody which I use for long trips.
These days long trips rarely exceed 50 miles.....

However, this thread is tagged as I want to restore my cruise controls as I believe all the car features should work.

Ta,

Neville.
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post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-27-2018, 06:04 PM
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Two places to start which have worked for me to restore a working cruise control om the 164:

1. Remove corroded connector at CC ECU located behind air bag ECU and right side carpet center console.

2. But only after first disconnecting and cleaning connector at CC actuator mounted next to air cleaner.

3. OBTW first before 1 and 2 be sure vac lines at CC actuator are not cracked and actually have good vacuum coming from vac ball in L/F wheel well behind L/F inner fender liner which get vac from 90 degree elbow on intake plenum and sucks gas fumes from carbon canister into intake.

Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Lakeland, Florida
Virginia Beach, Virginia
AROC 164 Tech Advisor

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Alfa Semi-Daily driver: USA model - BB2 1991 164S Black Beauty II ALFISTO [U]

[U] BB1 1991 164L w/S engine and A/T now excess to inventory [U]

Daily driver and parts hauler but not car hauler 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4.7L H.O. V-8

"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"
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post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-27-2018, 07:41 PM
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Even when we go on a 5-7k mile run with an Alfa with cc, such as the LS with cc, we never even think about using it. We are generally on and off the throttle, partly because the roads we choose to drive on, and also because there may be traffic to deal with, as we are always a little faster than the norm.

I remember an old SAE journal article which stated that the safest way to drive was always slightly faster than the norm, so that you are generally coming up on traffic, not being stuck in groups. I believe in that as well, and practice it when we drive. Lol, sometimes even faster, believing the research which indicated that when you drive a little faster, you are more alert and, of course, a safer driver. Oh, yes. Early freeways had no curves built in, so they were finding that drivers were falling off the road asleep at the posted speed limits. Later highways had curves built in to reduce this.

BTW, dd does not need cc at all. Just too much going on.

Del

Seattle

1989 Milano, Shankle Sport
1991 164S, stock
1994 164LS (~Q)
1972 Morgan 27

previously owned since 1964:

62 Morris MiniMinor 850, 67 Austin 1275 Cooper S (Downton 3/4 race), 64 Giulia Sprint GT (1st red one made), 72 Fiat 128 Sedan, 75 Alfetta Sedan, 78 Alfetta Sedan, 78 GTV, 81 GTV6, 86 GTV6

Last edited by Del; 04-27-2018 at 07:44 PM.
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