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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-08-2009, 08:48 PM Thread Starter
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My timing is off

The L had a tensioner fail. I had three valves replaced on the rear head. The car has travelled about 2,000 miles since then. It hasnít been starting well lately so I decided to check the timing.

I printed the template on paper (itís kind of flimsy). If I line up the template with the front cam, then the rear cam is retarded 4 to 5 degrees.

Doesnít that mean that the rear cam needs to be adjusted rather than a timing belt issue?

Thanks,
Greg

'91 164S
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-08-2009, 09:00 PM
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there must be a reason the belt jumped. did it roll backwards or something?
With only 2000 on it suggests the tensions might not have been installed proberly and the spring is broken. I'd at least check the tensioner.

Red 1991 164S, Black 1991 164S, Red 1987 Milano, 1972 Berlina, 1973 Berlina rebuilding SPICA engine
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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-08-2009, 09:01 PM
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the template needs to be printed off on 8.5X14 heavy paper, or laminate it

Red 1991 164S, Black 1991 164S, Red 1987 Milano, 1972 Berlina, 1973 Berlina rebuilding SPICA engine
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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-08-2009, 09:34 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks Richard.

I didn't have any heavy paper so I just used legal paper. It makes it hard to get an accurate reading.

I think I understand now. The rear cam is one tooth behind where it should be. I don't think the car ever rolled backwards. It's more than likely an installation error. I live in a small town and the shop had never seen an Alfa 164 before. There is a spider in the area.

I haven't had any problems with my S and they replaced that timing belt, but maybe it wasn''t the same mechanic. I printed off all of Steve's instructions hoping they would get it right.

I'm not sure where to take it now.

Thanks,
Greg

'91 164S
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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-08-2009, 10:52 PM
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one of the most common errors on installing the tensioner is over stretching the spring, by not using the pliers. maybe that's what happened.
Where are you located. There's must be someone knowledgeable close by.

Red 1991 164S, Black 1991 164S, Red 1987 Milano, 1972 Berlina, 1973 Berlina rebuilding SPICA engine
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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-09-2009, 04:13 AM
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Adjusting mechanical tensioner on Alfa 12v V6

I wish we could make it easier than it is to time the cams on these cars and set up the mechanical tensioner but it seems to be there is a mental block when it comes to this style mechanical tensioner. You can't use the don't force it just use a bigger hammer mythology.

Granted it isn't what is should be and was originally used on a later Alfa engine with a little different set up but the design causes that issue of possibly breaking outer spring when trying to force body to move by using lifting lug only (the reason for using needle nose pliers in the two holes in the pulley pivot point to start the over center movement).

Alfa 164 TSB 01.93.03

Step 13. INSTALL A NEW TIMING BELT. PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THE TIMING REFERENCE MARKS MADE EARLIER. USE SPECIAL TOOL (PART NUMBER 608-97517) TO RETRACT THE TENSIONER PULLEY* AND SLIP THE BELT OVER THE TENSIONER PULLEY. DOUBLE CHECK THAT YOU DID NOT DISTURB THE TOP DEAD CENTER POSITION OF THE CRANK SHAFT AND THAT YOU ENGAGED THE APPROPRIATE TEETH OF THE CAM DRIVE PULLEYS. USE GREAT CARE SO AS TO MAINTAIN PROPER CAM TIMING. ON MILANO AND GTV 6 MODELS YOU MUST PROPERLY INDEX THE AUXILIARY DRIVE SO AS TO MAINTAIN THE PROPER IGNITION TIMING.
NOTE: FOR ADJUSTMENT / SET-UP PROCEDURES - SEE TECHNICAL BULLETIN 01.93.04

* special tool = needlenose pliers



Alfa 164 TSB 01.93.04

1. With engine cold and positioned at top dead center, loosen both tensioner retaining nuts. Use a 3/8 square drive inserted into the lift square (see Figure "A" attached) of the tensioner and rotate the assembly counter-clockwise (into the drive belt) until a resistance is felt.
CAUTION: Do not use excessive force! Torque applied to the lift square must be at least 11 foot pounds but no greater than 18 foot poinds. Too much force may damage the clutching mechanism.

INSERT STEP 13 FROM FIRST BULLETIN: USE SPECIAL TOOL THE NEEDLENOSE PLIERS (PART NUMBER 608-97517) TO RETRACT THE TENSIONER PULLEY AS YOU START TO LIFT TENSIONER BODY WITH LIFTING LUG SO BODY MOVES EASILY OVER CENTER TO PREVENT SNAPPING OUTER SPRING.

Ciao, Alfisto Steve
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Last edited by Alfisto Steve; 09-09-2009 at 04:26 AM.
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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-09-2009, 06:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCurtis View Post
The L had a tensioner fail. I had three valves replaced on the rear head. The car has travelled about 2,000 miles since then. It hasnít been starting well lately so I decided to check the timing.

I printed the template on paper (itís kind of flimsy). If I line up the template with the front cam, then the rear cam is retarded 4 to 5 degrees.

Doesnít that mean that the rear cam needs to be adjusted rather than a timing belt issue?

Thanks,
Greg
Staples has thin poster board that fits in my printer. You just have to pre-cut it to get your 8 1/2 X 14. Laminate will firm it up some more.

Bill '92 164L, '78 Fiat Spider, '92 XJ6, '06 Ford Five Hundred SEL
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-09-2009, 07:37 AM Thread Starter
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I live in a small town about 60 miles north of Columbus OH, so my choice of mechanics is limited.

The first thing Iíll do is make a more rigid template, to make sure my measurements are correct. I suppose itís possible that the rear cam was in the wrong position when they put the timing belt on. That cam was taken out to change the bend valves. I guess that seems less likely than installing the tensioner incorrectly.

Either way the belt has to come off and the tensioner reset.

Thanks,
Greg

'91 164S
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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-16-2009, 02:34 PM Thread Starter
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So I made a more rigid template and the timing was still off. I inspected the tensioner and it seemed fine, at least from what I could tell without removing it. I took the car down to the shop that installed the tensioner.

They said it everything was timed exactly as they set it. Upon further discussion we determine why we have different readings. They are using the Mitchell service manual which doesnít mention the front pulley timing marks, only one on the rear by the transmission. Iím using the one on the pulley.

Why are they different and which one should we use?

Thanks,
Greg

'91 164S
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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-16-2009, 02:54 PM
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If they are using dot on flywheel they are using wrong mark for top dead center. They need to use mark on front crank pulley and line it up with triangular mark (with a hole in it) on front cover. With that crank pulley mark lined up they can look at flywheel and see if they can see a scribed line on flywheel (this scribed mark maybe missing if car 5-speed and flywheel has ever been machined.

They need to use Rick's pdf template you printed off for cam timing marks on cam pulley hubs or pull valve covers and use timing marks on cam bearing caps and camshafts.

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/265321-post1.html tech bulletin on crank pulley timing marks.

Ciao, Alfisto Steve
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[U] BB1 1991 164L w/S engine and A/T now excess to inventory [U]

Daily driver and parts hauler but not car hauler 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4.7L H.O. V-8

"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"

Last edited by Alfisto Steve; 09-16-2009 at 02:58 PM.
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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-16-2009, 03:01 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks Steve.

I don't why the Mitchell's manual is wriong, but that would explain why the car doesn't run as well as it should.

The L is an automatic.

'91 164S
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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-16-2009, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCurtis View Post
Thanks Steve.

I don't why the Mitchell's manual is wriong, but that would explain why the car doesn't run as well as it should.

The L is an automatic.

Show your mechs these pictures:

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/164-...tensioner.html

Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA
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Alfa Semi-Daily driver: USA model - BB2 1991 164S Black Beauty II ALFISTO [U]

[U] BB1 1991 164L w/S engine and A/T now excess to inventory [U]

Daily driver and parts hauler but not car hauler 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4.7L H.O. V-8

"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"
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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-16-2009, 03:40 PM Thread Starter
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Will do. I gave them to them once when they did the TB on my S, but I'll print them again to make sure.

I looked in the shop manual (CarDisc) and it has been corrected in pencil. It looks like the Mitchell manual followed the original shop manual.

'91 164S

Last edited by GCurtis; 09-16-2009 at 03:45 PM.
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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-16-2009, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCurtis View Post
Will do. I gave them to them once when they did the TB on my S, but I'll print them again to make sure.

I looked in the shop manual (CarDisc) and it has been corrected in pencil. It looks like the Mitchell manual followed the original shop manual.


Yes there is a tech pub bulletin on error:

Alfa 164 TSB 01.94.04

Ciao, Alfisto Steve
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Alfa Semi-Daily driver: USA model - BB2 1991 164S Black Beauty II ALFISTO [U]

[U] BB1 1991 164L w/S engine and A/T now excess to inventory [U]

Daily driver and parts hauler but not car hauler 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4.7L H.O. V-8

"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"
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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old 09-16-2009, 03:55 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks Steve. I didn't realize I had all the service bullitens on the cardisk, but there they were.

'91 164S
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