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Lemons/Chump problems

91K views 378 replies 34 participants last post by  archeologist 
#1 ·
Since we've been running a transaxle car the longest in Lemons I've decided to start a thread for all the Lemons/Chump racers for all the problems we've encountered while racing these cars. We seem to run into a whole different set of problem because of how long our races are. At the last T'Hill we were out for about an hour and a half changing a broken transaxle and still manages to do 988 miles of racing. No wonder stuff breaks.

I'm hoping others will post their experience with breakage so hopefully we can all learn from each other and not all have the same problems. One of these days an Alfa is going to take an overall win.

The late two races we've broken the finger that is on the shift shaft that the shift linkage bolts to. The first time we broke the tip of the finger off and the last race we broke the finger where the roll pin goes through. On one side the finger is relieved for the u bracket that holds the spring that centers the shaft in the 3-4 shift rail and the finger was VERY thin there.
 
#136 · (Edited)
Some issues

I am beginning to prep my car for the next LeMons race at NJMP. I have seen a few reoccurring problems popping up in the last few races. As I have said before, my car "Angelina" is pretty developed at this point and is being driven harder that ever before. Its a good car and can run with the big dogs of LeMons in any venue, proven by its position in P1 or P2 for long lengths of time in the last 3 races in fields of 130 - 140 cars.

1. I run the stock brakes up front with high pressure air ducted into the "hat" of the vented rotors. The body of my calipers is getting to at least 300 degrees F and the piston is definitely higher. I run Castrol Racing SRF brake fluid and have never experienced brake fade from boiling.
But, shortly into any race (1-2 hours) the heat burns up the dust shields on the caliper piston. Which would be no problem, except that those dust shields prevent the caliper piston from turning. So then the caliper piston will revolve slightly due to the pads slight movement in the caliper body. When they turn the cutout area that is designed to be at exactly 20 degrees to the caliper turns and now the pad will be worn rather severely on a taper because of this. So I need a crazy high temp dust shield or a way to prevent the caliper piston from revolving.

2. Front wheel bearings: The car can pull over 1g of cornering force for extended periods and does. A typical race weekend including practice is 20 hours of track time. The front rotors will get blue from the heat all the way around, stopping at the wheel studs. So there is a good heat load. After every race the front hubs come off everything is inspected and repacked with red line synthetic grease. I have tried more bearing preload and less bearing preload. After each race I generally will need to replace one of the inner bearings because it has some very fine beginnings of some marking on the cup portion.

But every 3rd race or so I will find one of the inner bearings cups loose in the hub. Since the bearing cup or race is way harder than the hub, What is happening is that the cup displaces the metal of the hub then can rotate. This is supposed to be a press fit. So game over for that hub.

These inner bearing cups are loctited in with Loctite 620 and are good when installed. I have been using Redline CV-2 synthetic grease and am going to try Mobil 1 next.

I realize that I am subjecting these bearings to loads beyond what their designers ever intended. But I can make the bearing live but the housing (hub) is the weak point.

Greg
 
#137 ·
Issues

1. I run the stock brakes up front with high pressure air ducted into the "hat" of the vented rotors. The body of my calipers is getting to at least 300 degrees F and the piston is definitely higher. I run Castrol Racing SRF brake fluid and have never experienced brake fade from boiling.
But, shortly into any race (1-2 hours) the heat burns up the dust shields on the caliper piston. Which would be no problem, except that those dust shields prevent the caliper piston from turning. So then the caliper piston will revolve slightly due to the pads slight movement in the caliper body. When they turn the cutout area that is designed to be at exactly 20 degrees to the caliper turns and now the pad will be worn rather severely on a taper because of this. So I need a crazy high temp dust shield or a way to prevent the caliper piston from revolving.
Two things, If you are running vent hoses that depend on just incoming air from the car`s speed you should wire in a couple of bilge blowers to really move air on to the brake center.

The solution to both stabilising the piston and reducing heat transfer from the pads to the dust shield is a couple of thin stainless sheet metal plates cut to the same shape as the brake pads including the retaining holes.
The outer one dhould have a machined relief so that the contact pad on the piston fits through that plate so that it is held in the correct position but the stainless plate must leave the pistons contact area proud of that plates surface.
A second thin stainless brake pad plate should not have a cutout but simply act as an insulator.

You are an E so you know het transfer is reduced between surfaces and stainless is a good choice for reducing heat transfer.
These should be on both sides of the caliper of course.
The reduction in heat transfer to the calipers is substantial.


2. Front wheel bearings: The car can pull over 1g of cornering force for extended periods and does. A typical race weekend including practice is 20 hours of track time. The front rotors will get blue from the heat all the way around, stopping at the wheel studs. So there is a good heat load. After every race the front hubs come off everything is inspected and repacked with red line synthetic grease. I have tried more bearing preload and less bearing preload. After each race I generally will need to replace one of the inner bearings because it has some very fine beginnings of some marking on the cup portion.

But every 3rd race or so I will find one of the inner bearings cups loose in the hub. Since the bearing cup or race is way harder than the hub, What is happening is that the cup displaces the metal of the hub then can rotate. This is supposed to be a press fit. So game over for that hub.

These inner bearing cups are loctited in with Loctite 620 and are good when installed.

I realize that I am subjecting these bearings to loads beyond what their designers ever intended. But I can make the bearing live but the housing (hub) is the weak point.

Greg
The hub material is pretty thin at both front and rear bearing area.
Solution is to reduce expansion due to load on the hub.

I assume you have removed the clip on anti-lock senders from the hub.
But note the area that they took obstructed air flow to the rotor.
I suggest you lightly machine (using a lathe) the outer surface where the inner bearing race and seal fits, to a consistant diameter (it is a casting).

Then take either a section of thick wall STEEL (not cast iron) tubing or machine a section of round steel plate to a inside diameter a couple of thousandths ID diameter smaller than the finished hub diameter. The OD should be about 1 inch larger than the ID (1/2 inch wall) which will act as both heat sink and prevent growth.
Heat the ring and chill the hub and press it on.
 
#140 ·
Hi RJ,

Good Idea WRT SS shims. I will do this for the race after this one. We are in NJ May 9-11th. What do you think for sheet thickness?

Likewise with hub. I think I want to try to design something more robust with a bigger bearing though.

Heat is an issue for sure.

Greg
 
#141 ·
Hopefully Wes Conklin will chime in here. They machined some hubs and spindles to make a Ford Crown Victoria (I think) front hub work on the Milano. The bearings in that thing are massive.

We rerouted our exhaust to exit from the side, and installed vented rear rotors (along with spaced Spider calipers). We went from warping stock rear rotors every other race to not having to touch them in the past 2 years.

For our fronts, we ran some ducts from out front, and we are repacking the bearings every other race, and checking wheel bearing play at the end of ever race day. So far, no problems. But we don't drive as hard as you do.

bs
 
#142 ·
SS shims

Good Idea WRT SS shims. I will do this for the race after this one. We are in NJ May 9-11th. What do you think for sheet thickness?
The one holding the piston in position has to be as thick as possible but leave the contact area proud of it to place pressure on the right area of the pads. Others can be thinner and used in multiples as pads wear down to keep the pad deep in the piston.
 
#143 ·
We just got back from another disappointing (but fun) weekend of racing. We ran the Chumpcar race at Gingerman and things started off well. Day one we ran as high as P13 and were moving up until early in stint 4 when oil temp soared and oil pressure plummeted. After much experimentation and head scratching we determined an oil cooler line had herniated internally, blocking flow to the cooler. We replaced the lines and got back on the track for a couple more stints on Saturday.

Sunday came around and we were running strong even with an artificially low redline of 5k. We managed to work ourselves up to P10 when the car started overheating. After cool down we found the radiator was low and topped it off, sent the driver back out with explicit instructions to return if the temp exceeded 200. Which it did about an hour later. We continued this process until the end of the day. We narrowed down the water loss to the fill neck/cap area but we are unsure if it is cause or effect. We are going to do an engine teardown next week, we want to look at bearings and headgasket.

We suspect that we have too little suspension travel at the front, in jounce. At a couple of places on the track where we suspect the largest and longest lateral loads occurred, we discovered some hop.

We run a stock Spica Alfetta gas tank with the output rerouted to the spare tire area, where we have a 1 qt spin on canister fuel filter and our Bosch electric fuel pump. after about 90 minutes of racing we will aerated the fuel pump in left handers. After refueling we find that we have only used 6-8 gallons of fuel (of 14).

So this begs some questions:
- Those of you running oil coolers, what do you use for hose?
- Do most racers agree on a minimum oil pressure of 10lbs per 1k RPM hot?
- What kind of pressure do you guys run in your cooling system? We use a 16 lb
cap.
- Has anyone done any relocation of the jounce stop, or is our only option to
increase ride height?
- Has anyone done any work to baffle a stock fuel tank? Would putting the fuel pump in a lower height relative to the tank help? (stock location is much lower that current location, which would increase head pressure and have a longer hose from the tank.)

Despite of the mechanical issues we did manage an award this weekend. Our team was awarded the prestigious "Spin Cycle Award" for the most offs of the weekend. I have never been so proud and humiliated at the same time.
 
#146 ·
Take a look at Earls Pro Lite 350 hose, use it with the AN hose ends. Goodrich and Aeroquip make similar products.

I use a standard cap and I have a 3.0 liter Milano stock radiator. I should switch to a Summit racing Chinese one.

The fuel tank on a Milano is brilliant. 17 gallons and it all comes out. The motor will hiccup on left handers when there is about .75 gallons left. Of course you need to service the sock inside the tank. I don't know much about the Alfetta tank. You need to get a look in there.

I would remove or seriously cut down the bump stop. And then what are you running for front springs? At minimum you have to have 27mm torsion bars. And a 27mm front ARB.

If there are issues with your fuel tank (did it always behave this way?) you can perhaps fabricate or buy a surge tank and pump to it and pump out of it. Look it up.

Greg
 
#144 ·
So this begs some questions:
- Those of you running oil coolers, what do you use for hose?
We run AN hose and fittings on our cars. Currently use SS hose but looking at the push on style for the next car.
- Do most racers agree on a minimum oil pressure of 10lbs per 1k RPM hot?
Yes
- What kind of pressure do you guys run in your cooling system? We use a 16 lb
cap.
So do we we but we also modify the radiator to be a triple pass system.
- Has anyone done any relocation of the jounce stop, or is our only option to
increase ride height?
You want to keep the lower control arm fairly level. If the arm runs uphill from the frame to the lower ball joint then the roll center is under ground and the car doesn't handle. We use a dropped spindle to help get our car lower.
- Has anyone done any work to baffle a stock fuel tank? Would putting the fuel pump in a lower height relative to the tank help? (stock location is much lower that current location, which would increase head pressure and have a longer hose from the tank.)
The stock Alfetta tank has three baffles that run front to back and one that runs side to side. Although the fitting for the fuel pick up is on the left side of the tank it is picking up the fuel in the middle of the tank. There is a tube that runs to the center of the tank and a slight depression that it picks up from. I'll post some pictures if I can find them. Are you still running the Spica system? Our 4 cylinder car burned 6 gallons/hour and would run a full 2 hours on a tank with the Webers and not miss a beat until it just ran out of fuel.

Despite of the mechanical issues we did manage an award this weekend. Our team was awarded the prestigious "Spin Cycle Award" for the most offs of the weekend. I have never been so proud and humiliated at the same time.
Glad you had a good time. When these cars are good they are great, getting them there can make you tear your hair out. But why race an easy car? Anybody can do that.
 
#149 ·
Lemons/Chump Problems/Wives



Hey, what's the matter with wives' today? You mean they don't want you using their dishwasher to clean auto parts, using their pots and pans to heat up thermostats to see if they open, using your jelly roll pans for miscellaneous screws and nuts as you disassemble a greasy engine, and last but not least tripping through the house, stepping over engines and miscellaneous parts...? Oh, I've got it -- the porch has to be fixed so that you can accomplish all of the above. ;)
 
#151 ·
Major construction on the porch is finished, I just have to install the sheet steel roofing. It's Alfa time!

I found the reason for the oil cooling failure, it was ME. I took the system apart, cleaned it all up and found a piece of paper towel wedged in the return line. Stupid.

I should have the motor out Saturday afternoon and start teardown on Monday. I'm sure I'll find even more work inside.

I received my copy of Jim K's book and found plans/instructions for a flow bench. I can't wait to take a die grinder to that pretty lump of aluminum that the great unwashed refer to as a cylinder head.
 
#152 ·
I did our first chump car race at Lime Rock in July. Here is a short clip of a pretty good lap in Angelina.



Greg
 
#155 ·
We survived (dare I say thrived) our last race of the season! Out of 14 hours of racing we were sidelined for about 30 minutes. Cold and damp kept the speeds low for the first hour or so of both days but quickly improved. The newest iteration of our 2.0l SPICA injected motor pulled like a freight train (we weren't able to get to the dyno prior to the race so I have no hard numbers for you). Engine and chassis improvements clipped 5 seconds from our previous fastest lap at Road America.

Our 2 failures- Throttle cable came undone from the intake end (a first), and the spring on the barometric compensator broke causing us to go dead lean (second time for this particular failure).

We ended up with a mid pack finish both days and were quite happy with the car's performance.
 
#156 ·
Awesome: Congrats.

I raced in NH with LeMons last week. Story to follow....

Greg
 
#158 ·
Wheels



The problem is for 15" wheels the only tire is a 205/50/15. With our GTV6 we knew we needed more tire than that. The second problem is the 5x98 bolt pattern, not a lot of wheels available with that pattern. We solved this by machining our hubs for ARP wheel studs on a 5x100 pattern. This is a very common pattern. VW/Audi, small Toyota/Lexus and Honda/Acura all use this. First we started with some factory 17" Audi wheels, what freakin boat anchors, wheels weighed almost 29 pounds w/o tires. We've ended up with these wheels as they are easy to get and relatively cheap and weigh in at 20ish pounds. You can really feel that 9 pound difference in the wheels.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/rlw-12677587s/overview/

For tires we run a 215/45/17. We could run the tires for an event and a half but because of our tire deal we put new tires on for every race and sell off the used ones to other teams.

Hope this helps. If you have anymore questions come find me at Sears. We'll be in our usual garage spot.
 
#159 ·
I have a set of speedline 15x7 that we ran on our chump Milano, they are pretty heavy...

EMail me at wabmw25@aol.com if interested, $200 for set.

The stock GTV6 wheels are very light, but would be hesitant to use for track duty because of the age....The Milano 3.0 wheels are heavy as heck. I would also be careful using aftermarket wheels as we have had several failures in Spec e30 BMW, and a lot of that comes from having to go from 14 to 15's and there were no stock wheels in 15 for that car. you get what you pay for sometimes.

I like the idea of machining the hub for 100mm, there are some good BBS/german made wheels available for that pattern.

Al Taylor
 
#160 ·
Massive CHump/Lemons Milano team FS

Looking to sell my Milano race cars/parts/parts cars. I have 2 race cars, both would need updating, the roadster I have been using for RallyCross, the sedan had a ton of work done but the engine smokes. I have a platinum streetcar that runs and I was driving until the shift linkage gave up this year, verde complete parts car that runs (140k miles) and the remains of 4 other cars. There are plenty of new parts also...

If interested please contact me at wabmw25@aol.com

I would take 5k for everything and it would be a massive undertaking to move it all, The sedan race car, verde are located 4 miles from VIR, the roadster and platinum streetcar are at my farm off INterstate 95, exit 150 NC.

THanks

Al Taylor
 
#162 ·
My two cents.

I am running 16" rims. I went from 225/50/16's to 205/45/16's. The narrower tire is faster. Why? because it is shorter which helps in acceleration and it weighs significantly less.

Why 16"? because I got a great deal on two sets of TSW rims on eBay. What should I be running? 15" rims. My 16" TSW's have taken incredible abuse over the years of racing, so that's good. but the heavier of the two sets weigh 23 pounds each. That is heavy as heck.. And with my car at a horsepower disadvantage to the big V8 and Turbocharged cars the right place to lose weight is on anything that is rotating mass.

There are good choices in 15" tires, BF Goodrich rivals etc. Also these tires are nice and small in diameter to lower our final drive. And they are far lighter than the bigger sizes.

The small overall diameter also lowers the car which gives another advantage.

Size matters... Small is better.

Greg
 
#163 ·
Greg, that has been my thinking when it comes to wheels and tires. Smaller, lighter, shorter final drive. We're really only thinking of switching from the 14s because of concern about tire availability.

Speaking of which, we've been running the Direzza Star II on our Volvo and loving them. They are still available for the 14...
 
#164 · (Edited)
I've been running a Milano ('Alyssa Milano') in Lemons in the Midwest since 2012, and thought I'd share some info/experiences. I apologize in advance for the long post/wall of text.


Current configuration:
Theme: Alyssa Milano, actress (Who's the Boss, Charmed, Mistresses, etc.) But has a line of sports clothing for women, as in, pro team logos on clothes for women, called 'touch'. So, that's the theme, so we put some football stuff on the car, a charity she supports, etc. We also put a sticker on the back that says 'Who's your boss?' Cracks me up...

3.0L V6, (installed July 2012.)
Platinum transaxle with 'enhanced' LSD (installed April 2014)
Rebuilt driveshaft (done before 1st race)
Stock brakes except with Wilwood manual proportioning valve (installed 2010), and vented rear disks (installed April 2014) Using ATE Type200.
Front pads: Carbotech XP10
Rear pads: Carbotech XP8
Stock suspension in front (poly AR bushings installed Oct. 2014)
Stiffer springs in rear, with 'red' Koni shocks (installed April 2014)
Stock fuel system

Original config:
Milano silver,
Stock in every way.

MOTORS!
We spun a bearing in the first motor (2.5L) at Autobahn (IL) in our first race in 2012, about 5 hours in, and it got worse from there. Replacement was a 3.0L out of a 164, that ran good until Oct. of this year, when it slipped a timing belt tooth, and it got worse from there. Rebuild process is underway. Only mod to engine was setting oil pump clearance to min value to get better oil pressure. Just going by dash gauge, it always had plenty of oil pressure at idle, none of the typical ~<10psi nonsense!

This spring, we replaced the old trans that had developed a whine (like a supercharger!) last year. We ran it for a race and a half like that. Anyway, we swapped it for a platinum with an enhanced LSD, along with a vented rear disk kit (with Spider calipers) from Performatek, replaced the original rear bushings with poly stuff, installed stiffer rear springs and koni red shocks. Even the new rear springs help control body roll, though we still have a lot!

Brakes:
We struggled with brake fade/low pedal issues, and by fixing a combination of things seem to have gotten it under control. First was we needed a correct shim between booster rod and brake m/c, and second was getting the air out of the FRONT lines. This spring after swapping the rear brakes, a team member tapped on the front hard loops while we were struggling to get even a mediocre pedal back, and lots of bubbles came out. In the end, the pedal was better than it had ever been.

But, in the process of trying to diagnose the brake fade, we instrumented 1 front pad and 1 rear pad to get temps. Temps in the front were in the 800-850 deg F range, and the rears could go over 900 F, but still within the Carbotech specs for the pads. With the vented rears, the temps sometimes reach 900, but seem to cool down down much faster and usually are the same as the front, if not cooler. This is going by memory. I can look through the data files if someone wants more accurate before and after info.

Brake Ducting:
Early on, I put ducts for the rear brakes in the rear passenger floor, with PVC pipe scoops, thinking we could pull some air in. Eventually I got a airflow meter and at a track day learned there was none! So, we put ducts in the roof in the bleachers we have (there is a football stadium on the roof) which got some airflow. This spring, I got some plexiglass rear side windows from a former Milano rally car, that had ducts, so we're using those now. Haven't noticed a difference in temps. Also, we cut some 'gills' behind the front fender, thinking it would help hot air get out. Haven't noticed a difference in brake temps with that either. I don't know why, but I continue to instrument pads and collect data. We're even investigating infra-red sensors to get rotor temps, using a harbor freight gizmo.

Oil temp(s):
In July, I installed a thermocouple on the 'oil level' probe to measure engine oil temperature, and was quite horrified that it would get to 290 deg F, running Brad Penn 20w-50 (changed every race). For the last race, I installed a 164 oil cooler and switched to Mobil1 15w50. Oil temps were more reasonable, though maybe a touch high at around 250 to 260 deg F. For the last race, we added a thermocouple for trans temp. Being lazy, I didn't modify the drain plug as planned, so I just JB-welded a TC wire to the bottom of the transaxle case. No useful data the first day, as in the cold and wet I couldn't get the wire to stay on. (That data was mildly interesting, in that just dangling there, the air temp would get to 120 deg F at times). We got some interesting data the second day, with temps around 200 deg F. Keep in mind, this was running for about 40 minutes. With a healthier engine, running all day, brakes heatsoaking the transaxle case, I'm sure the oil will get a lot hotter than 200F. We ran Mobil1 trans oil for a while (changed every race), but switched to redline for the new transaxle.

Wheel Bearings:
As like others, we have front bearing issues. We smoked a front wheel bearing in April 2013 on the Sunday. Ever since, we remove and repack/(replace if needed) the front wheel bearings at the end of the first day. It took a few races to track down a clunk in the front suspension, which was apparently the front AR bar bushings. That particular thunk was gone at the last race.

Tufting:
I also tried tufting the car to get an idea of airflow. For the track day I took it to, I forgot my GoPRO, so had a friend take stills as I drove around, which didn't work that well. With a video camera mounted outside the car, it might work to see what is going on. I was thinking there must be a way to duct the rear of the car to pull air out from the rear brake area, and was trying to locate a low pressure zone behind the car. That was the idea, but haven't found the right way, yet.
 
#169 · (Edited)
Oil temps

Oil temp(s):
In July, I installed a thermocouple on the 'oil level' probe to measure engine oil temperature, and was quite horrified that it would get to 290 deg F, running Brad Penn 20w-50 (changed every race). For the last race, I installed a 164 oil cooler and switched to Mobil1 15w50. Oil temps were more reasonable, though maybe a touch high at around 250 to 260 deg F. For the last race, we added a thermocouple for trans temp. Being lazy, I didn't modify the drain plug as planned, so I just JB-welded a TC wire to the bottom of the transaxle case. No useful data the first day, as in the cold and wet I couldn't get the wire to stay on. (That data was mildly interesting, in that just dangling there, the air temp would get to 120 deg F at times). We got some interesting data the second day, with temps around 200 deg F. Keep in mind, this was running for about 40 minutes. With a healthier engine, running all day, brakes heatsoaking the transaxle case, I'm sure the oil will get a lot hotter than 200F. We ran Mobil1 trans oil for a while (changed every race), but switched to redline for the new transaxle.
Our 24V motor runs 250 deg F oil temps all the time and this is with a cooler installed.
Our trans as run so hot that we were having shifting problems and drained the tranny during a race and the oil was so hot it melted a plastic drain pan. Since we've gone to a transaxle cooler it runs around 200 deg F according to the temp gauge we put on it.
 
#165 ·
Starting to get antsy, must fight urge to work on race car. Hope I can make it to New Years Day.

Things on the list:

Transaxle repairs X3- we destroyed 3rd gear synchro at our last race, the spare trans I put in the car has a horrible whining noise (input shaft bearing?) and the trans in my DD Milano needs a 2nd gear synchro.

Brakes- time to renew the calipers, flush the hydraulics and new pads all around

Spica Pump- devise a more reliable return mechanism for the baro compensator arm

Watts link- new bushes throughout

Front shocks- need new rules compliant front shocks

Front sway bar- build a new front bar in the hope of keeping the inside rear tire planted

Engine- routine maintenance and dyno testing

Additional pieces of information we picked up on this year:

Fuel pump location- after a fuel pump failure at our first race we relocated the fuel pump to the spare tire well. After that we would only be able to get about 8 of 14 gallons out of the tank before we started having pick up problems. We moved the pump back to the original location (down low) and now can draw 10 gallons before encountering problems. Head pressure matters! Next step, fuel cell.

Oil Temps- when the forecast high is 45 degrees you do not need an oil cooler.
 
#166 ·
I see that both of you guys are referring to a transaxle whine that developed. Read this post. http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/motorsports/166507-lemons-chump-problems-2.html#post1098482

Not only did I experience this issue twice. Brian's car did the same exact thing. I have some pictures somewhere of both the way the shaft rotates and rubs on the 5th gear and how to fix it for good.

WRT to my off season plans with my car. The competition I am running against now in LeMons are some seriously fast cars. I am working on a few things to step it up.

Greg
 
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