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post #31 of 67 (permalink) Old 10-03-2007, 11:33 AM
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Airborne Alfas

Many thanks Veloce for putting a name to the photo ,I hope that the project lives on as its builder would have wished.
I like yourself would give anything to have an Alfa powered sport plane ,so share your dream of that Italian barn find. mabye one of the attached mostly AR 115 powered craft would fill the bill..
1... CAPRONI CA.163 1-AR115
2... CAPRONI CA.603 1-AR115
3... CAPRONI CA.602 1-AR115
4... SAIMAN 200 1- AR115
5... SAIMAN 202(204R) 1- AR110 ( AR115)
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post #32 of 67 (permalink) Old 10-03-2007, 11:49 AM
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Airborne Alfas

A few more dream machines ,again mostly Ar115 powered ,
1...BREDA BA.39 1-AR BUILT COLOMBO S.63.
2...CANSA CA5B biposto 1-AR110.
3... FIAT G.46 - 1-AR115.
4... NARDI FN.305 1-AR115
5... AMBROSINI S.7 1-AR115.
Of the above the Ambrosini fills the bill for me as the perfect Alfa powered machine . The lines of the swept wing development of the S.7 are even more perfect ,unfortunatly I cannot lay my hands on the photos of the Freccia at the moment.
Charley
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Last edited by charley; 10-05-2007 at 02:45 AM.
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post #33 of 67 (permalink) Old 10-03-2007, 04:26 PM
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Amazing that all of these planes are Alfa powered. With all of these planes built, one begins to wonder why AR stopped building production airplane engines. Most likely it was a 'bottom' line issue and not cost effective. With most defunct engine builders, one has to resort to custom fabrication of parts to keep them flying. I wonder if there is a supplier of AR engine parts for these aircraft?
Is there a European version of "Trade-A-Plane" ? I wonder if a person could find a AR powered plane?
Again, I would very seriously consider selling the whole lot of cars and parts for a flyable AR powered airplane. It would be kinda hard to take to a convention. Think I could win in my class?
The Breda would be my favorite...looks along the lines of an Alfa Romeo SZ for an airplane. The Ambrosini would be more like a TZ do you suppose?

Did you notice the lack of visual dihedral in the Caproni 602 and 603? I wonder how that 602 would be for stability with out the apparent lack of dihedral? The 603 with that big tail would be wicked for doing spins...flip right over in a heart beat and around she goes.

Last edited by velocedoc; 10-03-2007 at 04:31 PM.
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post #34 of 67 (permalink) Old 10-04-2007, 06:45 AM
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Chris,

Post WW2, Alfa Romeo built engines under licence from the English Bristol-Siddley company, who were a bit peeved as the Italian engines were more powerful than the original English ones!

I would guess that a combination of the move towards jet engines, massive development costs & the dominant market positions of firms such as Pratt & Witney, Rolls Royce etc. made it risky running with the established big boys.

Just my tuppence worth...

Tony Stevens
England
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post #35 of 67 (permalink) Old 10-04-2007, 12:14 PM
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Airborne Alfas

Hi Tony,
After Alfa ceased production of its own piston engines ,it restricted its aviation work to overhaul of Curtiss-Wright R-1820 and R-3350 piston engines and J65 turbojet engines,Rolls Royce Dart turboprop and Rolls_Royce Avon and Conway engines .
In the early 1960's it resumed its manufacturing activities ,by joining in the European production programme( with FIAT ,FN of Belgium and BMW ) for FIAT(General Electric) J79-GE-11A turbojet to power the F-104G Starfighter that were being built in Europe. It was also the European distributer of the GE J85 and CJ 610 turbojets.
Alfa also contributed to the Fiat G.91 programme ,as this was powered by the Bristol Orpheus 803 engine I assume that these are the motors that you refer to. Piaggio was the lead manufacturer for the Bristol Viper that powered the Aermacchi MB326 , did Alfa also supply components for this engine?
I saw a press release which referred to the Alfa stand at Le Bourget in 1968 having as many as 17 turbine engines on display although unfortunatly no breakdown on type was given.
In the 1980's Alfa also developed the AR318 turboprop , Which if memory serves was a development of the Rolls-Royce RB-318.
Charley

Last edited by charley; 10-05-2007 at 02:47 AM. Reason: correct date
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post #36 of 67 (permalink) Old 10-04-2007, 05:41 PM
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Where did the aviation division reside? Was it in Turin near FIAT? So little has ever been spoken of the aviation side of Alfa Romeo ,just as it has been about the nautical division.
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post #37 of 67 (permalink) Old 10-05-2007, 11:36 AM
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Airborne Alfas

Hi ,
The full address of Alfa avio was as follows..
ALFA ROMEO AVIO-SOCIETA' AEROMOTORISTICA PER AZIONI,
R & D DESIGN TECHNOLOGIES -PROPULSION & AEROTHERMODYNAMICS,
80038 POMIGLIANO D'ARCO
NAPOLI,
ITALIE.
I am attaching a press release from General Electric from 1997 which I think sheds light on the extent of Alfas role in major jet projects they are clearly taking the lead in the development of a GE badged motor.
You mentioned above wing planform of the Caproni ca.602 ,I cannot find any photos or drawings of the 602 wing , but I have two photos of the ca,603 .As the wings are substantially the same ,with the exception of the extra strut on the 603 ,you can get an idea of the wings on the 602.
I have also traced the photos of the ambrosini s.7 freccia swept wing . this was fitted with an AR 115 for flight test, it was this aircraft that was later modified to become the SAGITTARO, replacing the AR 115 WITH A Marbore jet engine ,
I will post them below.
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File Type: txt GE - Aviation T700-CT7 PRESS RELEASE.txt (2.5 KB, 390 views)

Last edited by charley; 04-30-2011 at 03:19 PM. Reason: omitted a word
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post #38 of 67 (permalink) Old 10-05-2007, 11:46 AM
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Here are the photos of the AR115 powered AMBROSINI S.7 "FRECCIA".To my mind the ultimate sport prop plane.
Charley
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post #39 of 67 (permalink) Old 10-05-2007, 06:17 PM
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Charley, thank you for taking the time to write about all of this. Your efforts are showing a side of AR that few know about. This is alot larger of an effort than I imagined. Yes, we see the engines in the musuem in Milan, but there are no airplanes on display. The museum dedicated to the automobile and little to the other efforts.
I seem to recall from a brochure of AR from the '70's, a picture showing some workers around a jet engine, explaining that they were working on overhauling.
In looking over the Caproni 603, there is dihedral in the lower wing and what appears to be reverse dihedral in the upper wing. I can only imagine that plane would have been alot of fun to fly.
I was wondering where in Naples that plant might have been? I was at the Sud plant in the late 70's. Could the plant for engines have been on those grounds?
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post #40 of 67 (permalink) Old 10-06-2007, 06:51 AM
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Airborne Alfas

HI again Veloce,
I don't know about the present but the Ambrosini record breaking plane"Angel of the Children " I-ASSI was on display at the Alfa Museum. I attach a few photos of it in flight and in the Museum.
I also attach two press release's the first ,Oct 1996 ,regarding the Fiat incorporation of Alfa Avio into the Fiat Avio structure (it still kept its name at this point) . The second is the disposal , to fund the car business ,of Fiat avio of its engine making assets and the dissappearence of the Fiat Avio and Alfa Avio names now becoming merely AVIO. It looks that the naples site now is back merely in the overhaul business.
Charley
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File Type: txt 1 FiatAvio acquires Alfa Romeo Avio.txt (2.9 KB, 421 views)
File Type: txt 2 Fiat Avio diventa Avio-Fiat Avio becomes Avio.txt (3.1 KB, 780 views)
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post #41 of 67 (permalink) Old 10-06-2007, 09:20 AM
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Amazing. The companies combined should hold a good share of the market place for doing research and overhauling of engines. Sounds like AVIO is in a good place to make the engines for the Tornado. There are alot of people working in this business and a good size income to support it.

I wonder why I didn't recall the airplane at the museum? I was there, most likely saw it, but was probably focused on the cars. The museum can be a mind over load when you walk around and see all the great cars of the past.
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post #42 of 67 (permalink) Old 10-06-2007, 08:55 PM
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The airplane in the museum has a real interesting history! The "Angel of the Children" was powered with a 120 hp AR aircraft engine. To bring attention to the world about the plight of 15,000 crippled and orphaned war children, the pilots Leonardo Bonzi and Manuer Lualdi flew the plane across the Atlantic Ocean. At the time it was the smallest plane to make this trip in 1948. Gazette of the Sport to promote a subscription to support the humanitarian initiative, the result was extraordinary: in a short time they collected nearly 7 million Liras, donated to Bonzi and Lualdi upon their return from their travel of hope.
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post #43 of 67 (permalink) Old 10-07-2007, 07:37 AM
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Airborne Alfas

The year prior to the South American flight I-ASSI piloted by Bonzi and Lualdi set the distance record for class 1 aeroplanes by flying 2.591 miles straight line distance from Campoformido north of Trieste to Massawa Eritrea.
The year after the South American flight this remarkable aircraft embarked on a trans ARTIC flight . One item of interest was that when the plane arrived in Senegal prior to its transAtlantic trip , the French authorities tried to stop the flight as they considered it unsafe. the pilots were cocooned in a virtual fuel tank and to save every ounce of weight they abandoned their radio and parachutes.
I AM ADDING A PHOTO OF BONZI AND LUALDI UPON ARRIVAL AT ONE OF THEIR STOPS IN SOUTH AMERICA. I WONDER WHY THEY HAVE BIG GRINS ON THEIR FACES. ?
Charley
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Last edited by charley; 10-08-2007 at 02:37 AM.
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post #44 of 67 (permalink) Old 10-08-2007, 01:01 PM
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Airborne Alfas

On a previous post I referred to German aircraft fitted with Alfa motors, one of the aircraft spoken of was the Dornier Wal which due to the manufacture of such aircraft being forbidden to Germany at that time was in fact made in Italy at the Cmasa works in the Marina de Pisa and later at Piaggio.The Wal was fitted with every kind of motor imaginable depending on the country that was paying for them. Wal's were used in Italy in both civil and military guise.both types of Wal were fitted with AR Jupiter engines ,2 for the Wal and 4for the SuperWal .
I also attach two photos of the Fiat cr42B biplane ,a one off fitted with an Alfa Romeo ra.1000 (db.601) and to this day the fastest piston engined biplane at 323 kmh. a group in the US is setting out to beat this but with a turboprop.
I.. wal 2-ar jupiter , this aircraft seems to be equipped for multiple wing walkers or a acrobat troupe with its huge aerial array.
2. another Italian civil Wal 2-jupiters outside the Piaggio works.
3. Super Wal 4 AR-jupiters.
4&5 photo's of the sole Fiat CR.42B 1-AR ra 1000(db601)
Charley
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post #45 of 67 (permalink) Old 10-08-2007, 07:11 PM
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I look at the Super Wal and I cringe when I think how hard that must have been to get all four of those in synch. I can't imagine someone trying to beat an old record piston powered airplane with a turbo prop. That is not playing fair. That CR42B plane is like flying a Pitts S2A with a big engine from a Comanche 400.
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