10-03-2006, 08:39 PM
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Christopher Boles
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: At the other end of the state
Posts: 2,186
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Detent Springs
I am asking for some confirmation on what I believe is the problem with my fresh rebuilt trans in a '76 spider.
I test drove the car today after setting up the FI for smog and resolving some other issues. As I drove down the street and back, the transmission slipped out of gear all by itself in 1st and 3rd real easy like. I could make it pop out of gear by pushing the gas pedal hard also.
In thinking this through, it is my belief that the detent springs are to weak and not holding the gear rod in place.
I reused the old springs which generally isn't a problem. I think in this case it is.
The rest of the transmission is fine, easy shifting all through the gears.
Thoughts?
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10-03-2006, 10:24 PM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: sacramento,ca
Posts: 2,248
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yes , please find out, for i have not instaled the transmission thay you gave me, but on another note, how do the wheels look on your wife's spider?
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10-03-2006, 11:15 PM
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Christopher Boles
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: At the other end of the state
Posts: 2,186
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See the private message. Totally different builders. Major component replacement parts.  |
10-04-2006, 11:51 AM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Milpitas CA
Posts: 1,542
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Check the boots. I had a super stiff boot on (I think it was a CV boot or somthing)
as the first boot. and it would pop out all the time. I ordered new boots. and the new type flex super easy and no more poping out. I did not do my trany for the Alfa so I do not know if this is a problem. but on others I have had to weld up the shift rods and cut the V back to get the detent to work right.
__________________
1987 black Milano Verde
1972 White spider 2000 Veloce
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10-04-2006, 05:59 PM
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Christopher Boles
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: At the other end of the state
Posts: 2,186
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New Shift Boot
 Quote:
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Originally Posted by slyalfa
Check the boots. I had a super stiff boot on (I think it was a CV boot or somthing)
as the first boot. and it would pop out all the time. I ordered new boots. and the new type flex super easy and no more poping out.
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I will pull the center console and see what gives. Best way would be to drive the car with out the console on and see what happens. Will report more after I do this.
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10-06-2006, 11:23 AM
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Registered User
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Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,401
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Sometimes you just need to adjust the shift lever and boots. It is possible to mis-assemble this area and end up with the lever not going all the way into gear. Torque then pops it out. What may be happening is that the lever is blocked by the sliding steel curved washers under the lever. If you take it apart, you may be able to see this by shifting into gear.
Robert
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10-15-2006, 03:47 PM
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Christopher Boles
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: At the other end of the state
Posts: 2,186
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WELL...(a deep subject) You never really know what the problem is until you start digging. I removed the center console and all the boots on the top of the tranny and went for a short drive up the street. That tranny gear whine is loud! Anyway...the tranny still popped out of third really easy. So that told me that the tranny has to come out!
So an hour or so later the tranny was on the ground. I stripped the gear box all the way down and still couldn't understand why the 3rd gear shift fork was so easy to move.
So out come the shift rods. Two of the interlock rollers that lock out the other shift fork were in their proper place. Now that is the clue to the problem. TWO interlock rollers.
I have another partially disassembled tranny on the floor and thought I would compare. Taking the tranny shift forks out revealed THREE interlock rollers.
Now I know why the tranny was so easy to slide out of gear. The missing interlock was not holding the shift rod in place.
What is strange...the book only shows TWO interlock rollers! WRONG.
So by bed time tonight I should have this tranny repaired and back ready to install in the car. |
10-15-2006, 06:40 PM
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Registered User
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Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,401
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The detent springs with ball bearings have little cup holders that are bolted in place. Internal to the transmission are two oval shaped objects polished like ball bearings, but shaped like a Tylenol gel capsule; there are only two of these. They are inside the shafts, and slide between them as one is moved, locking the others from moving.
The last time I had this problem, it was a mis-aligned set of sliding discs on the top of the tx shift tower; those curved discs under the shift lever. They prevented the lever from shifting all the way into gear.
If the tx pops out of gear, the syncro ring is NOT being pushed all the way onto the gear. The moly ring is crowned, and the rotating shift sleeve has a matching inverse. If it slides all the way on, it self locks. the detents just help, and the interlocks are to prevent two rods being activated at once.
Either the shift lever is blocked by something, or the shift forks are out of alignment. That's the only way the syncro ring will not engage fully.
It is possibgle that the shift fork(s) is loose on the rod or were mis-adjusted originally - they are clamped with a toothed segment and a bolt to hold them in place, and have to be properly centered to get good shift action.
The TX manual describes the proceedure accurately.
Robert
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10-15-2006, 09:36 PM
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Registered User
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Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,401
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Here's a bi more on the 3-4 shift problems. This is the pair that often causes problems, 'caus 3-4 is different from all the other gears.
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Originally Posted by velocedoc
1/2 gear and 5th/reverse all worked just fine. It was just the 3/4 shift lever that was giving me the problem. The gear would hold in 4th but 3rd would just slip in and out like it was butter. That is when I thought there was something not working the shift lever like it should. Hence, the teardown and discovery that there is only 2 instead of 3 interlocking balls. Yep, they look like pills.
If all those gears were working, then how could 3rd be the only one that is slipping out of gear? I can't imagine it being misaligned as it is centered over the synchro hub equally.
I would think that one side of the synchro ring is just the same as the other side so it wouldn't matter which side is up or down. People flip the rings and reinstall.
I tore down the spare tranny I had here and there were 3 "pills" in the galley. One was in the shift rod and there were two others. I just reassembled the main case with 3 pills in the shift rods this afternoon
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I understand what you are saying about the detent balls, they are there to add insurance the shift rod stays in place.
hard to sort all of this out with out someone standing here that is more familiar with the in's and out's of the gear box. I can't be that far off from being correct, just some little quirk that has made this interesting. That is why I was thinking the missing pill is why the shift fork isn't locked.
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As to your poping out of gear problem, I think that the shift fork on your tx is mounted incorrectly on the 3-4 rod.
4th gear is a direct couple from the input shaft to the output shaft - it's 1.00 gear ratio. But third gear is like the others - driven thru the countershaft, it selects a gear pair for that ratio. All the gears are indexed off the rear transmission bearing EXCEPT 4th - that gear and its sycro ring is indexed off the forward bearing because it engages directly to the input shaft.
That's why the tx manual has you set the spacers so carefully. You have to get the forward input shaft in the right place. The roller bearing race inside the input shaft that centers the rear shaft is a critical piece, as is the spacing of the two parts of the TX drive shaft.
I've never had to change the spacer if the tx was properly assembled at the factory. But if you change the input shaft, or a replacement for the front bearing is out of spec from its original, this spacer must6 be adjusted. It's not a 0.001 adjustment, but a hundredth is important. the manual shows using a caliper for the measurement. You really need a copy of it.
Once that is correct, THEN you can set the location of the 3-4 shift fork. If ths shift fork is too far forward on its shaft, it will not lock the syncro sleeve all the way over the moly ring on the 3rd gear, yet it will do fine engaging the 4th gear. When you apply torque, the dog teeth push the ring out of 3rd gear.
You can test the proper operation of the shift rods with the tx case split. But the manual gives you the proper measurement for locating the shift forks.
Wear in the brass shift fork arms, or a bent one, or wear in the syncro rings can also cause too much play for the gear to engage properly.
I hope this helps.
Robert
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10-16-2006, 05:18 PM
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Christopher Boles
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: At the other end of the state
Posts: 2,186
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 Feeling pretty embarrassed right now...a private message posted publically.
Great information. Thank you |
10-16-2006, 05:59 PM
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Registered User
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Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,401
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Golly, Chris, I'm Sorry. Just trying to help others.
That's two misteaks (!) today.
Oops. three.
Robert |
10-16-2006, 06:06 PM
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Christopher Boles
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: At the other end of the state
Posts: 2,186
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Robert, I am forgiving...you are a great help!
I went out to look at the 3/4 gears. I tried to slip the slider into each gear. The slider would go in to 4th but not 3rd. Hmmm. So I flipped the slider and it would engage 3rd but not 4th. Hmmm Hmmm!
Ok, get another slider. The tranny I just tore down was 2 steps away. I grabbed another slider and AH HA! It engaged both 3/4 and flipped it also engaged 3/4. So it is the slider. Now WHY doesn't it work.
I put both sliders side by side and compared. The center indentation on the engaging teeth was nominal wear. So I looked carefully at the teeth. The worn slider had the metal worn off to one side (hanging over). This is about .0001 or .0002 of an inch overlay of material. It is just enough metal to prevent the slider from going all the way over to lock the gear.
So I am replacing the slider with a new one. Generally the slider is not that much worn, but in this case it was. I will look closer next time!
No more problems. Thank you for your help.
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10-16-2006, 06:36 PM
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Registered User
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Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,401
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When I put the 2L in my Duetto, I kept the 1600's TX and bell housing, using Centerline's TO bearing adaptor for the new diaphram clutch. But that clutch has a different spline than the 1600.
So I needed a new 2L TX input shaft - no problem, APE in Tracy had plenty.
But when I assembled the tx, I had the same pop-out-of-third problem. Im my case it was just a missed spacer change, and a mis-adjusted shift arm. Two TX pulls and two reassemblies later!
I always seem to learn the hard way. The BB wasn't around then. Heck, the INTERNET wasn't around then. this is an easier way to learn.
Robert |
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