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105 upper A arm inner bushing problem

40K views 120 replies 37 participants last post by  Anfanuts 
#1 ·
This was a new one on me. My Super's right front suspension has been increasingly creaky and groany lately. Not that unusual for an old Alfa, but this persisted, so I looked into it last week.

Turns out the rubber inner bushing on the upper A-arm was separating from the arm itself. As you can see in the pictures, the rubber sleeve was moving forward, piling up in the small open space at the front end of the body mount, shoving the arm rearward, and causing the arm to scrape against the body.

I pulled it all apart this morning, and was it a bear, because the rubber was so expanded, I couldn't pull the A-arm out past the short "tubes" inside the mount that the bushing centers on, even with a bid sledge and a slide hammer. I Sawzalled it some, then ended up burning the rubber with a small torch, and chiseling the rubber out. Tough spot to get access to.

I bought a new inner bushing from Centerline, pressed the old one out, pressed the new one in, and now all's well.

This arm was an adjustable upper arm, bought from one of the big mail-order places about five years ago. I'm not slagging the seller, as I just think it was one of those things. The rubber did not appear to be at all bonded to the outer shell or inner sleeve of the bushing; friction seemed to be the only connection, as the bushing completely fell apart after I pressed it out.

The original non-adjustable arm on the other side (presumably a regular Alfa one) is fine. The only non-adjustable arms available from the mail-order places are for 115 cars, and 105 cars need a shorter arm, so you have to use the adjustable one.

This is not a problem I've encountered before. Pics show how much the bushing had migrated forward in the A-arm.

Andrew
 

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#2 ·
The FRAP adj arms come with those bushings. I did recently buy a set that had bonded bushings in them (I was surprised), but in general I toss the pressed together bushings as they are junk. The castor bushings in those arms are the early type that need the plastic inserts top and bottom. I do not think the plastics are available, but I replace them with later castor bushings or the poly ones. The bushings have NOTHING to do with who sold them.
 
#4 ·
As I said, I wasn't slagging the seller, because I know they don't make these pieces. On the other hand, from a consumer point of me, they sold me something that crapped out in a big way, and took four hours of hard work to replace, after maybe 10,000 miles of use. And I had to buy a $35 bushing to replace it, and luckily already had the $120 press to remove and replace the bushing. So it didn't cost me a lot out of pocket, but it was a lot of effort, and this is not what I call an ideal consumer experience. Again, in context, I should feel lucky to have such good support for a 41-year-old car.

For a non-handy person to have faced this would have been a $500 Alfa-shop day with ease.

Andrew
 
#38 ·
These are for the upper caster bushing - that's the link from the forward end of the wheel well to the outer end of the upper arm. Spruel actually makes a solid aluminum insert to replace the stock rubber bushing. The photo and discussion is about the camber bushing at the inner end of the adjustable arm. The right thing to use here is one of the bushings from the lower a-arm ends. It will press right in. Its actually a pretty sophisticated spherical bushing.

BTW - the stock caster bushing (for the outer end of the upper arm) is actually the same as the rubber one at the bottom of the carb support, and also the rubber bushings used at the center muffler support. Definitely not the best choice for a suspension part.

Robert
 
#7 · (Edited)
The original non-adjustable arm on the other side (presumably a regular Alfa one) is fine. The only non-adjustable arms available from the mail-order places are for 115 cars, and 105 cars need a shorter arm, so you have to use the adjustable one.


Andrew
Excuse my ignorance, but I've been in the Alfa family for 15 years now, owned many 105, and it is the really first time I hear about differences in arm length between 105 and 115...:confused:

All the spare parts specialist here in Europe state that the arm is OK from 1964 (or 63) to 1993, some other refer to it as 105.48.xxx

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What is the exact difference between the supposed 2 types ??



regards
sébastien
 
#11 ·
What is the exact difference between the supposed 2 types ??
I recall a Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) about the introduction of a second fixed length upper wishbone to account for out-of-spec camber with the original length wishbone. I don't recall one wishbone being specific to a 105 while the other to a 115 though. I'll attempt to find the document.
 
#8 ·
Part of the problem is that the people who sell the parts don't work on the cars. I have run into a few problems here and there that I have called the sellers and suggested they include some extra info on certain things so the average person would get it correct the first time. These arms have been comming like this forever and I have always been surprised they loose the chance for another sale of the rest of the parts it needs. I would never sell one of these to anyone without mentioning the junk inner bushings and missing castor bushing parts. Most people would just pop them in and never give it another thought.
 
#14 · (Edited)
OK,

BUT... I can't imagine that ALL the parts retailer IGNORE that the arm length is (supposed to be) not correct for a 105 car...:rolleyes::rolleyes:
This is not a rare or uncommon item and they should sell hundreds per year... at least !! If the arms were not suitable for 105 chassis , it would have already made some noise ?! Even a slight modification in camber can be detected without instruments. It is the only angle of the front axle that 'talks'. Simply looking at the front of the vehicle is enough sometimes...

About the missing castor bushing, it is for the same arm to accomodate with the 2 types of bushing available, to keep the symetry of the vehicle.(on a chassis dynamics point of view, of course)
Spare parts arm in the era were clearly deliverd without (spare parts catalog clearly show absent castor bushing, you had to order it separately)

regards
sébastien
 
#9 · (Edited)
A related problem is that the lock nuts on the adjustable upper arms tend to interfere with the rear edge of the "box" that they mount in. This is illustrated clearly in the photo that Andrew attached to his first post in this thread, as well as described in his text ("....causing the arm to scrape against the body").

I really worry that the locknut impacting the frame will put a bending stress on the threaded part of the arm - the base of the "V" in threads are prone to stress cracking when exposed to side-to-side loads. My concern is that an adjustable arm could fracture in the threaded area if the nut clobbers the frame every time the suspension is cycled. A non-adjustable arm 1) wouldn't be as prone to interfering with the frame since its diameter is smaller, and 2) would be MUCH more resilient to cracking even if it were hitting.

On my Sprint, I have pushed the bushing rearward, so that the inside of the arm is biased forward, allowing a bit more caster before the lock nut hits the frame.

Anybody else concerned about this? Having an upper arm let go wouldn't be a fun experience!
 
#15 · (Edited)
My comment was 'in general' - not specific to upper arm lengths. I could care less if there were 10 different arms. I like to be able to set things the way I want to, so I would simply buy the adjustable ones and not worry about it.

I bought some poly bushings in the late 90's when they were first widely available here and the parts were just made wrong. 12mm 'sleeve; for a 10mm bolt, another sleeve too big to fit into the poly bushing. Bushings that would fall apart if used 'as is'. I was shocked I needed to fabricate things in order to use them. The response I got was 'no one else complained' - THAT was scary! Some people just put things in without a thought...

I would never use a new oil pump without taking it apart, cleaning all the crap out of it, and making sure everything feels the way it should. I am sure a lot of people say ' wow, look at this nice new pump. I can just put it in and it will be perfect.' Piston and liner sets need to be disassembled and the crap cleaned out of those too. Most of the time the rings are even lined up... Waterpumps and thermostat housings (late spider ones) need to have the casting lines filed the eliminate the possibility of coolant seeping from them. Some of the misalignments (of the molds) are pretty bad. The people that sell 'parts' don't tell you everything you need to know. Those adj arms have been comming with the 'wrong' (or incomplete) castor bushings forever. Why? The least the parts places COULD do it tell you to purchase the correct parts so the installation will be correct. I have had 'parts guys' say 'oh, that's interesting. Thanks for tell me, no one ever give us much feedback'.

You could use the original design 3 part casor bushing (that comes in the frap adj arms with only 1 part - 2 parts missing) OR the later 1 piece style OR the poly ones.
 
#17 ·
I would never use a new oil pump without taking it apart, cleaning all the crap out of it, and making sure everything feels the way it should. I am sure a lot of people say ' wow, look at this nice new pump. I can just put it in and it will be perfect.' Piston and liner sets need to be disassembled and the crap cleaned out of those too. Most of the time the rings are even lined up... Waterpumps and thermostat housings (late spider ones) need to have the casting lines filed the eliminate the possibility of coolant seeping from them. Some of the misalignments (of the molds) are pretty bad.
You could use the original design 3 part casor bushing (that comes in the frap adj arms with only 1 part - 2 parts missing) OR the later 1 piece style OR the poly ones.
1166, I can't agree more ! Recently bought a 1750 core motor where the bearings were trashed (see below), but it had new pistons/liners and a shiny new oil pump! Took the pump apart and the relief valve was stuck due to a poor finish in the bore and general poor quality thru-out.
Ditto on the watwer pumps. Outlets all need work so they will not leak.
Randy
 

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#18 ·
Just back from vacation in Italy, where I saw not a single classic Alfa on the road, though I did go to the Alfa museum, and saw a ton of old Fiat 500s on the road. Classic cars are not in normal use in Italy.

To answer a question above the press I bought is a Harbor Freight $100 12-ton unit (I think; might be 20 ton). Worked great. I did use the bottom A-arm inner bushing to replaced the upper arm inner bushing. Looks much more substantial. Centerline lists it as an alternative, and in fact I think does not even sell a rubber upper inner bushing.

As to the length of the upper arm, I originally put a Centerline upper arm on the Super, and the excess negative camber was obvious to the naked eye. Maybe someone makes the right length for pre-1750 105 cars, but the 1750/2000 ones sold by the big US suppliers are too long for such cars, hence the need to use an adjustable one.

With the new bushing in, the arm sits enough forward from the rear of the "box" in which the inner end attaches not to scrape. Note that you can end up with that same problem though, by dialing in too much postive caster on the caster arm. Many of the rear edges of that box area on the 105 cars I've owned over the years, including this Super, show evidence of significant wear there from the upper arm scraping as it moves up and down.

Andrew
 
#19 ·
i just had the same experience with the upper inner bushing going bad. I purchased the adjustable upper control arm and installed it last summer along with all the other bushings and tie rod ends from Centerline. The last few months I've noticed a loud creaking and what feels like suspension play in the front passenger area, especially on hard breaking, nothing moves with a big crowbar when I have the front end up but I did notice my new upper bushings extruding forward! After reading this thread I'm a bit amazed that they don't warn you about this, I now have to spend a week end pulling both front control arms again and then setting up an appointment to get re-aligned. I called Centerline and let them know my experience and that others had the same and they said some did and some didn't and advised in buying two lower inner bushings as "upgrades" Ticks me off a bit after the fact, the free postage on the upgrades doesn't quite cover all the hassle, especially after reading how hard they are to get out in their "bloated" condition.
 
#22 ·
I have to add as well that most of the big hassles I've had with this restore were with NEW parts. Along with the above mentioned upper control arm bushing failure:

After doing a complete 1600 re-build, I was getting oil dripping out of what seemed to be the NEW rear seal, yank the motor, again, sure enough, the little spring in the new seal came undone (unscrewed itself end to end) nice!

Then for several months I had an oil leak that was a bugger to track down, the oil seemed to be blown by the fan all over the lower pass side of the engine, I checked everything, tach drive, distributor, gaskets, even pulled the head and replaced a new front crank seal with a another new one, (past experience) no luck! so I degreased it again and took out my flashlight and dental mirror again and almost got wrapped around the fan trying to see the drop of oil form - it was the NEW water pump! Bad casting in the Tach drive part - tiny pinhole weeping, almost impossible to see. Centerline apologized and sent me a new one N/C, no questions, good service even though it was not their problem.

Now it's the new Minilite replica wheels I got that should "bolt on" to the Duetto no problem - if you can find a chrome version of the lug nuts they supply in LH threads - not, I have a 67 US Duetto with standard LH threads on the left, so now its new studs, but now the ones sent are too long to install without pulling the rear axle, 3 weeks after receiving the wheels their still on the shop floor - so much for "bolt on". Ahh the adventure of it!
 
#23 ·
There was (is) a long rash of these bad water pumps. I installed one on a beater Berlina on 9/11/01, and had not a trickle but a gusher of oil. Very frustrating.

I just put one on my GTV a month ago, and the tach thrust pin came out practically by hand. Glued it back in, and so far seems OK. Fingers crossed for upcoming Thunderhill track event.

Andrew
 
#25 ·
Greetings: Frightening Thread! I have applied the adjustable upper a-arm to both my '67 Duetto and my '91 Spider. I used Centerline's BJ131 and -41 units. The Duetto has not been driven yet, but I have a few thousand on the '91 over 12 months. The pictures below were taken this evening, and I can't see any failure mode popping up. The 91 does not exhibit any interference of the adjustment nuts with the suspension box.

On the question of 105-vs 115 parts, I have some input. I converted my Duetto from Dunlop to ATE brakes from a '81 during the restoration. The AlfaBB has a few discussion on the subject, and it is pointed out that the original 105 front spindles are shorter than the 115. And there were interim spindles on the later originally ATE-equipped longtails. You must use the adjustable upper control arms when retrofitting the taller spindles on the 105 chassis. I believe there was a post that showed the spindles side-by-side for comparison.
 

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#26 ·
i read somehwere here that you could yous the bushings/bearings from the inner lower a-arm...i cannot see how this would be dangerious???all it will be doing in the upper a arm mount is a wee bit of twisting , and going up and down...
 
#27 ·
Not sure what your question is. The stock unbonded rubber bushings migrate out of the outer shell, then get stuck inside the mount. You press them out and press in a lower A-arm bushing, which is a much stiffer, better bushing, which locates the arm better and doesn't come apart.

Andrew
 
#31 ·
Just found this same problem on my 91 Spider...............Good to hear about being able to use the lower A-arm bushings for a replacement.
This has become a growing problem! Sorry to hear it struck your lovely BLACK (and Fast!) spider.

Can you identify the source and timeframe that the adjustable upper arm was installed? I have asked the provider of the 2 sets I have used (still OK, btw), and also discussed the issue with two shops, and they all suggest they never heard of the issue.

- Michael
 
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