Mumford vs Watts - What's Better??

streetfame · #1 (**permalink**) 12-21-2006, 10:48 AM

Opinions wanted - I'm contemplating a fabricated one but I'm not sure which is better. I was told that the Mumford is more forgiving with ground clearence than the Watts. Does anyone know the full list of pros and cons of both? I'm developing a trackable-streetcar (S4 spider) and I'd like the best handeling car possible for power control and suspension balance.

streetfame

**Andrew** · #2 (**permalink**) 01-24-2007, 11:45 AM

I don't know what a Mumford system is. If you add a Watts linkage, you'll have to remove the existing trunion above the diff, I'd think. On the Alfetta, GTV6, and Milano, I'm not sure there's any clearance penalty from the Watts linkage.

How about a Panhard rod for left-right compliance? I believe those are not uncommon for Alfa track cars. The on-axle mount would probably have clearance issues though.

Andrew

**Zunige** · #3 (**permalink**) 01-24-2007, 01:18 PM

The Mumford is better (considered a refinement to the Watts), but the problem is that no one has developed one commercially! Even as a one-off, there aren't any. (Or there is one, but doesn't quite work.) BB member "Little Italian" has been working on one, and I think he is farther ahead than anyone else. His CAD design is certainly very detailed and looks impressive. At one point, he had posted pictures in this thread, but I don't see them anymore. You may want to contact him. He is serious about devloping the Mumford for our Spiders, and some of us are too...

Best regards,

streetfame · #4 (**permalink**) 02-06-2007, 01:17 AM

Caught this late. Thanks for the responces. I've decided to go with Alfaholics Watts Link, as it was just what I was looking for. Max had a lot of great info and I'm well satisfied with the product. I combined it with their Adjustable Anti-Roll Blade Sway just for good measure. Will let all interested know how it feels/performes once I have it dialed in.

streetfame

**Zunige** · #5 (**permalink**) 02-06-2007, 04:48 AM

Just FYI - Performatek (from Boston) also sells the Watts Link. In January there was a tech clinic in NY, held by John (junglejustice) Ron (RSR Racing) and Andy (Performatek), and some of us got to see the Watts Link first hand... Of course, Alfaholics is a great outfit, run by very knowledgeable folks.

Best regards,

streetfame · #6 (**permalink**) 02-06-2007, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zunige

Just FYI - Performatek (from Boston) also sells the Watts Link. In January there was a tech clinic in NY, held by John (junglejustice) Ron (RSR Racing) and Andy (Performatek), and some of us got to see the Watts Link first hand... Of course, Alfaholics is a great outfit, run by very knowledgeable folks.

Best regards,

**Zunige** · #7 (**permalink**) 02-06-2007, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Posted by streetfame
Thanks for your opinion here and for not "hate-mail PMing" me on what I should do with my spider. Those that have done so, obviously are quite jealous and have far too much time on their hands...

**msiert** · #8 (**permalink**) 02-06-2007, 02:40 PM

There are always people who think if you don't turn your own wrench or if you put anything more into a car than you can sell it for tomorrow your stupid but there are just as many who understand. We can't all be mechanic's, bodymen, engineer's and designers we have to know what our limitations are and that to do it right you do have to farm out a good part of the work if not all of it. Unless you are an experience mechanic.

Look at any project from hot rods to race cars to custon street cars their all very expensive to build ($100,000 + on some) and if your going to do it you might as well do it the way YOU want it. Sure you can buy one already done but your just buying someone else's dream.

More power to you and anyone else that wants to do it and a big "that a boy" when you show the building progress on a BB. I know it's a fine line between showing off and just wanting to show others what you are doing but this is the place to show your stuff off that's why we come here. Heck all of my home town friends and family just think I'm crazy for what I did so this is the only place I can come too and talk about it.

You have a great project going and those that don't like it should just move on to another thread. I'm sorry that anyone has given you grief don't let that stop you from showing the rest of us what can be done.

Enrique has done quite a lot to his cars too and understands that this custom stuff is expensive he took 2nd place in last years National Alfa Romeo Concourse event, I think that say's it all.

On the Watts Link, I check out Andy's watt's link too and he told me that it was designed based on a GTV and there might be some modification that has to be done to it to fit a Spider small as they might be it needs to be considered. I liked the Alfaholic's one too but if I did anything I would go to a Panhard Rod because Jack Beck's shop is about 15 min away from my house and if it is good enough for most of the racers it would be good enough for me. But for your Beast I would of gone to with a Watts Link also.

Hey this was my 200th post

Keep the pictures coming in your thread.

bianchi1 · #9 (**permalink**) 02-06-2007, 05:36 PM

a question.. doe's not the watts. linkage work really work only in one direction? as i nascar. they use watts. linkages..but they only turn left?

**msiert** · #10 (**permalink**) 02-06-2007, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bianchi1

a question.. doe's not the watts. linkage work really work only in one direction? as i nascar. they use watts. linkages..but they only turn left?

olycarguy · #11 (**permalink**) 02-06-2007, 09:50 PM

In reply to bianchi1's question....NASCAR does not use a watt's type rear suspension. They use a trackbar that's closer to a panard bar, but with side to side adjustment. By changing the position of the differental you can easily change rear roll center. A 1/2" drive speed handle is inserted into a jackscrew on either side of car during a pit stop and adjusted. It's simple way to adjust rear suspension and keep everybody on a somewhat level playing field. T.H.

PSk · #12 (**permalink**) 02-06-2007, 10:11 PM

BTW: Whether using a panhard rod, a watts linkage or a mumford link you have to change the 'existing trunion' above the diff.

You cannot have more than one thing controlling sideways movement, otherwise you will have a fight. Only one can be right.

The best solution IMO is to replace the 'existing trunion' with a GTA type one that just controls fore and aft movement and no longer sideways movement.
Pete

streetfame · #13 (**permalink**) 02-07-2007, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by msiert

...We can't all be mechanic's, bodymen, engineer's and designers we have to know what our limitations are and that to do it right you do have to farm out a good part of the work if not all of it....

...if your going to do it you might as well do it the way YOU want it. Sure you can buy one already done but your just buying someone else's dream.

...On the Watts Link, I check out Andy's watt's link too and he told me that it was designed based on a GTV and there might be some modification that has to be done to it to fit a Spider small as they might be it needs to be considered. I liked the Alfaholic's one too but if I did anything I would go to a Panhard Rod because Jack Beck's shop is about 15 min away from my house and if it is good enough for most of the racers it would be good enough for me. But for your Beast I would of gone to with a Watts Link also.

BigSwede · #14 (**permalink**) 02-10-2007, 03:47 PM

Anything is better then the standard setup. If it's too much work to set up a watts link then use a panhard. Mumford is just too much work if you ask me.

To be honest, a panhard will do the job great and since you're not rallying (jumping), who cares about the incredibly small side movement?

**Zunige** · #15 (**permalink**) 02-10-2007, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Posted by BigSwede
...Mumford is just too much work if you ask me...