GTV Suspension Upgrade Suggestions

[davidm1750]

I have read all the various suspension sets up recommended and thought I should add my $2 worth. On my 1750 GTV I am running stock springs though intend upgrading sometime but am running Koni yellows (not reds) as they are actually a better shockie and 14 X 6 alloys with Pirelli P6000 195 X 60s. Just these two changes significantly improved the handling. I would be careful in lowering the GTV too much unless for trackwork or historic rally's, unless you can live with a harsh ride. In terms of international suppliers in the UK, apart from EB spares I would definitely recommend looking at both Alfaholics and Classic Alfa. Both of these companys are run by 105 specialists who really know their stuff. They race, restore etc coupes (and have all you could need to make a GTA replica). In Australia, apart from Benicas the best other option is PACE Automotive. They to have handling, suspension as well as all other mechanical upgrades through to full race specifications. I cant comment on the US or European suppliers. Cheers Dave

[101 Alfa Mike]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTV4EVR My "knowledge" is purely second hand, but I thought that the rear of GTVs was usually made less stiff, not more. Don't some remove the rear sway bar. How does this fit with the W&D set up of a larger rear bar? My 74 GTV is at least 3" higher than my 69 GTV was so I definately want to go lower and stiffer, but want to maintain some balance. My other car is an Audi A4 with H&R Race springs, so I don't want the Alfa to be too loose!

[davidm1750]

Hi all. Re the last comments on the rear suspension of the 101 and 105 GTVs etc, I think you may be dead right on that. My understanding is that the rear of the 105 in standard form is softer than the front suspension. Certainly my 1750 GTV Series 1 is. I am no expert but as far as I understand it this was intentional and allows for the balanced/delicate handling. Admittedly in original condition, understeer is the norm, but this is still preferrable to oversteer. By installing stiffer lower springs and decent shocks you even up the stiffness of the car to provide neutral handling but at a cost in ride comfort and possible skittishness on bumpy roads. It really depends on what you want to use the car for. I am not sure whether the setup for the US was different from the Euro, UK and Australian market, but frankly would not be surprised if the ride height may have been higher on the 2L GTVs The trick from what I recall if you wish to prevent the inner rear wheel lifting and loosing traction is to install the slippery diff out of a 2000. Many 2L Berlinas have succumbed to providing the differential. I would have to check an article I have from Richard Banks of Alfaholics in the UK re the setting up of the rear end for GTV's for fast road use or track work but I was under the impression that the installation of either a panhard rod (eg as per the Fiat 124 coupe/spider) and/or alternatively a sway bar was not ideal. I may be wrong. I certainly know that they have developed their own version of the rear sliding block suspension setup as per the GTA in making their replicas and having seen their efforts at the Nurburgring (Germany) it certainly works a treat. Cheers Dave

[junglejustice]

Don't know what your budget is, but Ron Simons from RSRacing and the 75Experience in the Netherlands/Nurburgring-Germany has a 105 setup that is short of brilliant!

Call Group 2 Inc in Seattle at 206.378.0900 - they have stock! You can also try Joe or Mic at Group 2 Motorsports - Ron is here in the States visiting as we speak!

[genericwood]

Quote:

Originally Posted by junglejustice Don't know what your budget is, but Ron Simons from RSRacing and the 75Experience in the Netherlands/Nurburgring-Germany has a 105 setup that is short of brilliant!

[la_strega_nera]

Quote:

Originally Posted by genericwood John, is this the start of another RSR love fest? The RSR set up looks to be well done, but what is so special as to justify the cost? Erik

[BlpltGTV]

I have a set of Centerline sport springs on my 1750. Stock front swaybar, removed the rear. The ride is still soft, but the brake dive has been almost eliminated, and the car seems to be more stable. I'm still running the stock original SPICA dampers, but I'm planning on replacing the fronts with a set of Bilsteins when I get around to it. Yes the front springs are far stiffer than the rears, I think Centerline lists the fronts at 1300lbs, and the rears at 185. I'd like to run a larger front sway bar as well, but if you go too large, it might rip out the front mounts. I think a 27mm is the largest I would go, and thats on a car with no rust. If you have any rust in that area, you might want to run something less.

Just my $.02

Will

[rogerspeed]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTV4EVR I don't know how typical my 74 GTV is, but I seem to have a much tighter turning circle making a right turn than a left. I need a lot of room to make a left turn into our parking garage!

[genericwood]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rogerspeed Interesting observation. I think your car is mis-aligned, Hope it doesn't have frame damage.

[genericwood]

[quote=BlpltGTV;459758]Centerline lists the fronts at 1300lbs, and the rears at 185. I'd like to run a larger front sway bar as well, but if you go too large, it might rip out the front mounts. I think a 27mm is the largest I would go, and thats on a car with no rust. .QUOTE]

Will, just curious why you would want to go with a heavier bar in front? With the springs you have and no rear bar, I would think it would push pretty hard already. My '74 has similar springs with stock bars front and rear and it really plows on track days!

Erik

[Gary Williams]

The Alfaholics Fast Road Suspension, which includes a larger front sway bar, is hard to beat for a street-track combo. That setup has been on my '67 GTV for several years, with Koni reds and no rear bar. The car also has spacers on the front to accomodate Campys that were meant for a later model Spider; they widen the track about an inch. The total package provides excellent balance and even I can manage a good drift when cornering for fun rather than speed. Maybe Max Banks will weigh in with an explanation of how they chose the pieces for their various suspension setups.

[BlpltGTV]

[quote=genericwood;460096]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlpltGTV Centerline lists the fronts at 1300lbs, and the rears at 185. I'd like to run a larger front sway bar as well, but if you go too large, it might rip out the front mounts. I think a 27mm is the largest I would go, and thats on a car with no rust. .QUOTE] Will, just curious why you would want to go with a heavier bar in front? With the springs you have and no rear bar, I would think it would push pretty hard already. My '74 has similar springs with stock bars front and rear and it really plows on track days! Erik

[Max Banks]

I'm sure many of you have read my comments on suspension before, but since Gary has asked Iwill just cover a few points.

Rear sway bars are 100% unnecessary for all cars except race cars running lowered rear rollcentres (lower rollcentre = more effective roll) AND slick racing tyres. By not running a rear swaybar and optimising spring rates to control rear roll, you end up with a car that is much more stable in high speed corners and far more predicable on the limit - hence why 'even Gary' can slide his car nicely!

The 'old fashioned' way of setting a car up with massive spring poundages and standard front sway bar are way outdated - Control roll with roll (sway) bars and control pitch, ride comfort and balance with spring rates. Stiffer springs are proven not to automatically reduce roll (although naturally they do up to a certain percentage increase from standard - try photographing a race car with a set lb spring and then increase 50% - you will see little difference in roll - it can often even be worse as the inside wheel unloads much faster as the shock absorber can no longer control the massive spring poundage). Roll bars operate in a complex way and don't only increase wheel spring rate on the outside front tyre - their other modes of operation dramatically reduce roll in a way springs can't. The great thing is that softer springs = much better ride quality, much more predictable handling and are far safer in wet conditions.

Ride attitude is crucial, rear higher simply is a non-starter.

Suspension bush material is crucial, get the combo wrong and it doesn't matter how clever your suspension is, the car will not work well!

So these are basically some of a few of the theories involved in our suspension kits, the bottom line is there is also no strict formula to punch data into to get perfect suspension - otherwise all cars would handle perfectly - Its only by masses of development and testing that you can perfect setup, fortunately by driving 105s all the time on the road, trackday and full race, development time is time we have in abundance.

I see someone talking earlier about my Youtube video at the Nurburgring - to get this straight - that is my street GTA rep, not my race car - as a result all the suspension is stock locations - still using the OE T-bar (but in aluminium) - it is even running on pure street Toyos. As you can see you really can make stock geometry work very efficiently, if the setup of the car is right!!! Out and out race cars benefit from watts links but its not necessary for street cars and transmits far more vibrations. The end which for me is more important is the front end - geometry with rollcentre below the ground and inherent bumpsteer makes life much harder than it should be behind the wheel - we are just finishing a superb new front geometry package that corrects all problems whilst retaining standard wishbones - this makes it perfect for fast street and track and also complies with many race regs. Think of it as a combination of my tubular wishbones and heiom jointed trackrod kit in a very simple and affordable package. Its going straight on my GTA rep when finished in a few weeks!

I hope this helps to clarify some points.

Max

[gtvpete]

i know this thread is older but it seemed appropriate to post here rather than start a new one. the question came up here but was never really answered:

can anyone (ideally with first hand experience) advise if the Harvey Bailey valved Bilsteins (from EB Spares) are stiffer or softer than the stock Bilsteins as sold by IAP and others? i imagine they are a bit firmer, but that is only my conjecture.

anyone know for sure?

[chasgtv6]

Your best bet......contact Roman Tucker at Roman Auto Prep. He has extensive experience with alfas, and can give appropriate recommendations. Right now my spider is there for a track day suspension conversion.