Conversion from dual to single circuit

[EldridgeM]

Hi, all.

I have a '73 RHD Giulia 2000 GTV. Just wondering how one would go about converting from dual circuit RHD to single circuit braking system. The original system was ATE, but a PO butchered the car by adding not-so-wonderful PBR boosters (he's into old English cars). The thread pitch of the brake pipe must have been changed at the booster end to fit the PBR's.
What I want to know is:
a) Is the dual circuit thread pitch documented recently on this forum correct for RHD as well?
b) if I wanted to convert to a less cumbersome system, how would I do so?

Regards

[vangelislaz]

are you quite sure the car had AtE servos, originally? Must had a dual Bendix/Bonaldi servos. In my Giulia RHD with a 2l motor, the set up originally was the same like the 2l GTV RHD, with the 2 servos. When I found that the 2 servos were off anyway and the replacement parts were really costly, I took them off and by passed them! After that braking was more adequate and with a great feeling, however needs to have a heavier foot. Going that way I might be able to find 2 good or new servos in the future and drop them back without any modification. As for changing from twin brake system to a single one, my 2 cent is a NO, for many reasons, primary for safety reason.

[gprocket]

If you were refering to this thread: http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/gt-1...tml#post747697 I would say that the fittings should be the same from LHD to RHD and some of the tubing lengths would be the same but not all.

I agree with vangelislaz, I wouldn't change from dual to single from a safety/liability standpoint...

[vangelislaz]

If I was taken the right meaning of the asking , that was a conversion from RHD to LHD, no, the brake lines are completely different! Manuals shows this and I know this for sure since I own LHD cars and RHD cars. It is not only a matter of a single brake line, but a completely different system! I guess that in this GTV the PO had fit different than BENDITALIA boosters and maybe he had change some brake line fittings from the replacement booster side and thats all. And there weren't RHD gtvs/sedans with ATE servos like we know in LHD cars. However....our friend is from S.africa? I know that under ALfA's license there was a factory plant there, they made alfas, too! Perhaps, S.Africa RHD cars are different? I don't know

[vangelislaz]

I guess we can define the issue for the S.Africa car by asking if the car has hanging pedals or not.

[gprocket]

Yes, good question: Now that I look at it, if this were a USA car anyway, you would have hanging pedals and a far different system then what I referenced (which is a dual booster system for floor mounted pedals).

[Alleggerita]

For RHD, it's easy. Some very nice options, both single and dual circuit on this page below - I wish it was that easy for LHD bottom mounted pedals.

http://www.alfaholics.com/racing_and..._parts/brakes/

[EldridgeM]

Hi, guys.
Sorry for the tardy reply - that time of year in academia when semester ends and we have to organise the next and handling some other projects.
Excuse the dirt in the pics. I have no reference point, so is this a hanging or standing pedal set-up? I thought standing, but I have no reference point. If it is standing, then I should be golden. If not, really not that big a deal. I only had three pipes made which cost silly money in SA.
To answer previous Q's - yes, they are supposed to be Bonaldi/ Bendix boosters. Still waiting on Dr Fazio for the car's origins, because black plate on firewall is quite faded but I can see 105.22 and MADE IN ITALY.
Re: the ATE I mentioned earlier is on one of the reservoirs on the left-hand side of the car. I assume ATE was for calipers, not boosters.
Vangelislaz, when you say remove your boosters, do you mean you closed off the vacuum hose from the intake? That's how I'm driving at the moment, but the brake lights don't activate because the pedal is so stiff.
P.S. yes, that IS a window washer foot pump hanging from the dashboard - just one of the irritating hackjobs the P.O did... I always forget to move it!
Regards
Eldridge

[Alleggerita]

Early RHD are all standing pedals even when other markets went to hanging. The original style BMC is available from AFRA among others, part # 60722010

Afra s.a.s. - Pezzi di ricambio e ricambi d'epoca Giulia Alfa Romeo

If your boosters are dead, you can run this BMC w/o booster which is a bit stiff for street usage or alternatively only run one booster for the front brakes (e.g. Bonaldi unit). I think there is a thread somewhere how to hook that up on a LHD standing pedal car (US 1750) with dual circuit BMC.

[vangelislaz]

I never saw a RHD alfa with hanging pedals and with ATE servos, the calipers yes, must be ATE. Your car clearly has standing pedals (clutch and brake pedals coming from the base) as it should be. In my RHD Giulia Super (it has the same brake system like your car) as I said before, I completely took of the 2 boosters and by pass them (inputs with outputs) with 2 small brake lines ($20) and tap the hose coming from the manifold where the vac. valve is. I have a more accurate braking but needs extra force from your foot, which is no problem at all for me. I think very early Giulias don't have any booster, too.Perhaps, the best might be to have a different master cylinder when the boosters go, but again, the braking is very good if not better. I have to notice Alfaholics now offer a very clever solution to this problem (also considering someone has problems with the boosters) , mainly for a race car, a very nice box with 2 master cylinders under the car for a non booster use and not any other thing in between that box and the front/rear calipers! Must have a great braking.

[vangelislaz]

allegerita, master cylinder 60722010 must be the one already under the car! If it is in good condition I agree that it will work fine w/o the boosters. I've done it and works fine

[ShadeTree]

If memory serves me correctly, all RHD cars had floor mounted pedals as there was no room on the cowl for the booster/master cylinder of the hanging system. The location of the carburetors didn't allow space.

[gprocket]

So RHD Alfas never had hanging pedals because of space restrictions? That makes sense to me then.

I've driven without operating boosters and it does take more pedal effort but it's not extreme. But I think the brakes on the Alfa are one of the highlights of their engineering prowess and I prefer to stick with the system that they developed.

To me circumventing the boosters is like swapping a Holley carb for a SPICA pump or Webers. Yeah, it works but it's not the same...

[vangelislaz]

of course I agree with that ,I guess staying original always was and is our favorite. I personally took them of mainly of the replacement cost and for fun! Pretty soon, I realized that the actually braking was the same except for the more foot needed pressing. As for your example,...weber to spica...well, taking of the servos it is a modification, but without having putting on something else instead...and most of all you can drop them in back whenever you are ready, e.g find a nice new pair etc.

[gprocket]

FWIW, I just got an email sales notice from IAP - Vacuum boosters for $278! That's a steel. The rebuilds kits alone are $260 for the set!

Anyway, I probably miss-spoke a bit. I am not averse to modifying an Alfa in many ways. I'm not a fan of exterior, style changing mods but frankly anything to keep these cars on the road is better than seeing them rot, parted, or crushed. So if you have to put a 'Vette hood scoop on your GTV and you're willing to drive it, go for it!

As to the Spica vs Weber. Again, I don't even consider that a modification for the most part. Obviously both were offered in the day and in the day, Spicas were being pulled off and replaced with Webers almost as they left the showroom. I was really referring to the rare case where someone replaces a Spica with a Holley OR Webers with a Holley. And again, that's ok too - if I see you driving down the road I'll still wave!

Anyway, please don't take my comments as denigrating yours or anyone's modifications. Just don't leave it in the garage to collect dust...