Spider Engine rebuild

[jrflyboyVP2]

Yes, I torqued in recommended sequence in stages. I did not know about keeping the gasket clean without finger prints. I am sure I handled it like any other gasket, but with clean hands. I have torqued the head several times since the engine is running the last after 300 miles. Still oil seeping out the drivers side inner front corner (in front of the forward header pipe). I will check again for oil in the radiator coolant and coolant in the oil tonight when I get home.

Thanks John

[Ianc]

Did you hold the liners down with some sort of washer/bar device while working? Having the engine running well and no coolant leaking but having oil leaking sure doesn't sound like a head gasket.

[fgc]

Just thinking that it could be just a simple case of the O ring not sitting properly in the gasket esp since you indicated that its coming from between the head and the block and its located near the oil holes feeding oil up to the head and cams. I think that is the only part of the oil flow in the head that is pressurised. The rest are just overflow.

And at that head block joint, the overflow or return oil route are the 4 longish holes that are in between the 3 small round oil feed holes and the 3 holes at the back plus that big gap upfront where the chains sit. None of these are pressurised and they more like drip downwards bec of gravity than pushed so I assume that they do not leak unless there is some significant issue with the gasket sealing (will appreciate experienced alfistis' comments on this)

As DaveC suggested perhaps the roll pins which is suppose to stick out just enough to keep the O rings in place may have been installed just a tad too tall such that it is preventing the torqued head from squishing the O rings thus providing the much needed seal?? The roll pins onced installed is a PITA to remove. Usually a new one is installed on top of the old one which just gets pushed in deeper.

Note.. I think the roll pins, be it split or round tube, are not meant to transport or seal the oil passage. Its there just to hold the O ring in the right place. The O rings are the ones that actually does the sealing. So the roll pins should never be installed beyond a certain height.

When I removed the head for a gasket change in my engine, I noticed that one of the O ring was damaged bec it was not installed properly and the subsequent torqued head kinda compressed the ring to death. anyhow that engine had oil in radiator and I guess the PO had a leaky engine from the day it was first rebuilt until I redid the gasket.

I hope that its just a case of leaky cam covers instead and not leaky head gasket or O rings.

fgc
67 spider

[jrflyboyVP2]

Thanks for all the input, but I discovered the bad news Saturday morning while I was setting up the Spica Per John Stewarts excellent stickys and posts. There is definately oil in the coolant, so I pulled the cylinder head. After pulling the head, I can't see any thing wrong with the roll pins or o-rings. They are all in place. The roll pins do protrude past the gasket and o-ring by a couple of mm, so that is a possibility. Do you usually just make the roll pins flush with the gasket? I lay a straight edge across the liner and can barely get a .003 feeler gauge under it at the block sides. I layed a straight edge across the head and it looks good. I haven't removed the gasket/o-rings from the head yet because I am going to bring them down to the Alfa guy here in town where I purchased the rebuilt head from (gasket and orings stayed with head when the head was removed). The only thing I could see that wasn't completely right is that the head gasket is not centered on the holes. It is shifted toward the rear of the engine such that the o-rings are touching the roll pins, and not concentric with them. But it looks like the o-rings would still be in complete contact with the engine block all the way around. This one has me stumped. I have invested over $3000 on this engine so far (used spica $500, rebuilt head $1000, bearings, gaskets, oil pump, lower oil pan cover, engine mounts, etc. $500, alfa shop labor for setting everything up and getting it running $1000) and until I get the head to seal it is worthless. About the only thing I can do is get a new head gasket and o-rings, push the roll pins in a little further and make sure the gasket is centered so the o-rings are concentric with the holes. Is there any trick to keeping the gasket in place while lowering the head? Does anyone use any kind of gasket cement/sealer, ect. One other thing, the pistons look like the 10:1 hi compression pistons in the picture in the IAP cat. The have a high dome with cutouts for the valves. Do the standard 9.1:1 pistons have a dome with cutouts? Is there any way to tell for sure? I could post a picture if anyone could help identify them. I can't wait to get my engine woes behind me and start working on the suspension bushings. The good news is that I found my clunking/bearing noise in the rear end is only a badly worn rear u-joint, so I think my rear end is ok (except a leaky pinion seal).

Regards, John

[DaveC]

John, From the description on your last post, it seems to me that the new roll pins are the problem. A little history is in order. The roll opin solution for Alfas was the Brain child of a mechanic in Framingham, MA on 2600 engines. The reason roll pins were installed was not to seal up the passages, but to prevent the orings from distorting. Alfa learned of this modification and made it a factory mod on all engines after a certain date. When installing roll pins in cars that did not have roll pins, they were driven down about an 1/8" into the block and when the head was torqued, the head would push them in further. On your engine, you are pushing two roll pins down requiring a bit more torque. I would drive the pins down a little less that the thickness of the head gasket using a thin washer over the area of the roll pin as a guide.
As FGC said, this is the only place were there is oil preasure between the block and the head. At cold start, the oil preasure on those inacurate Alfa gauges shows about 100psi. Thats alot for a tiny oring to handle.

Dave

Everything you wanted to know about roll pins, orings and Alfas.

Roll Pins

[fgc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrflyboyVP2 ... After pulling the head, I can't see any thing wrong with the roll pins or o-rings. They are all in place. The roll pins do protrude past the gasket and o-ring by a couple of mm, so that is a possibility. Do you usually just make the roll pins flush with the gasket? Regards, John

[papajam]

Alfa TSB GR. 01 #07.2 says that the rollpin (Alfa calls it a 'guide bushing') should protrude 1.5mm (0.060") above the block.
I've had good results by having the rollpin protrude about 3mm and countersinking the oil holes in the head by a couple of mm.

[jrflyboyVP2]

Well, I think I have figured out the oil leaking head gasket problem. First I used the round thin o-rings which came with the head instead of the Square cut viton o-rings. Second, I torqued the head with an old inaccurate pointer type torque wrench. After installing the engine I had the car delivered to a local alfa shop, and assumed they would retorque to spec before starting the engine. I spoke with the mechanic today, and he said he didn't retorque the engine before getting it running. He assumed I knew what I was doing and had it right. You know what they say about assuming. I didn't communicate properly, and now I believe with the new oil pump, cold oil (high pressure), wrong o-rings, and probably wrong torque it started leaking right off. once it leaks I imagine it is difficult to get it to seal up. When I got the car back from the shop it had 75 miles on it, and the first thing I did when I saw the oil coming out the side, is go buy a click type torque wrench and retorque the head. All the bolts required at least a quarter turn to get up to 60 ft lbs, and the drivers side forward nut (where leak was) required about a half turn. After that I torqued it up to 65 ft-lbs, but the leak continued out the side. I have ordered a new head gasket, and will clean all surfaces completely, than use the viton o-rings, and torque in stages directly up to 65 ft-lbs cold before running the engine. Then immediately after briefly running the engine I will check the torque again. Hopefully I will get it right this time. I will let you all know the outcome.

John

[fgc]

Thanks Papajam for the technical note. Will remember that.

Hey John

I hear what you are saying about torquing the head but the fact remains that even after torquing it to 65lb the roll pin according to your last post still sits several mm above the gasket and O ring. I am wondering if the torquing of the head actually did push the pin deeper in! Could seasoned engine builders confirm this I would imagine that when a head is removed, the top of the roll pin should be about the same height as the O ring and not still be several mm higher.

The roll pin when installed especially where you need to push the old one in with a new one takes a lot of pressure to push it in. Not sure if 65lb would do it cos in mine when I had to renew the offending roll pin, I had to "pound" the new one in with a hammer. (sometimes its not the amount of pressure which is constant that will drive something deeper but rather the repeated pressure that will drive it in even at the same lb)

Incidentally, I've read that the old pointer type when used properly is actually very accurate. The clicker type the spring rate needs to be re calibrated every once in a while to keep it accurate. I have both BUT they never seem to agree though!

[Roadtrip]

Can anybody point to the thread about the defective new head gaskets? Wasn't Reinz having a problem, and I think (Joe Cab maybe) was recommending using a sealant with the gaskets???

[jrflyboyVP2]

Well, The new head gasket is in with new Viton Square Cut o-rings. The head and block were operating room clean, I torqued it up cold in stages. I started it up and ran it for about 5 minutes, shut it down and retorqued. Started it again, and warmed it up. Drove about 30 minutes keeping it under 3000 rpm. Got back and the head seal looks good! Yahoo!!! Got up today went for a 30 mile cruise in a cool Austin morning. Head still not leaking. Checked the torque and it is still good. So I started messing with the Spica FI. The Gap was pretty close to right. I added a shim to the TA since I have a 255 pump and a 29mm TA. I checked the FS and the the FS works, but the micro switch doesn't (explains the popping on decel). The Cold start clicks but didn't do anything at Idle. I checked the distance from the Pump body, and it was under 1/4 inch. I made at tool to loosen the nut, and had to turn it out about 3/4 turn before it started working. It now lowers the RPM about 200 when energized at idle. Starts better cold now, but still takes several cranks. I adjusted the mixture 1/8 turn leaner since the spark plugs are black with soot (looks pretty rich to me). Will test drive later today. I am a happy alfa owner today. Crossing my fingers the head gasket holds up this time.

John in Austin
76 Spider

[jrflyboyVP2]

Well, My new head gasket with square cut viton o-rings (standard Italian $21 one from centerline) are holding up. I finally hit 500 miles on the engine, so I opened it up this morning. I flogged it good! It was about 55deg, and the engine was running strong. I red lined it in 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear, man I love that Spica 2liter sound. I can't wait to start on the suspension and tires. This alfa thing can be very addictive! I'll have to keep an eye out for DEA.

I am burning tons of oil though. I don't see much blue smoke, but the exhaust tip is wet with oil, and I have already gone through 2 quarts in 500 miles. The number 1 spark plug fouls easily. I may still have to open the engine up again and replace the liners, pistons, and rings. Being the total Alfa amature that I am, and a tight wad to boot, I thought I would save a bunch of money by just honing the old liners and reinstalling the old pistons and rings. After all the only reason I pulled the engine was that it had a cracked cylinder head, oil in the water, water in the oil, low oil pressure (found out since it was just the sender), and oil leaks every where. So my original intent was just to replace front/rear crank seals, all gaskets, rebuilt head, new oil pump, and off we go! Now after all this, I realize I screwed up not replacing the liner/piston set, and I have some oil leaks anyway (even with all new gaskets and seals everywhere, still going around snugging up bolts I can reach). Oh well, now I get to try that neat trick of replacing liners from the top of engine, per the alfa digest posted method. I will let you all know how it works out for a complete amature like myself. I am worried the liners are stuck pretty good, and the coolant area around them is pretty gunked up and dirty from the oil leaking into the coolant, all that will head south once the liners come out. I will have to find a way to flush it out the bottom oil pan cover area (perhaps spray diesel fuel from top to flush every thing out after scrubbing with scotchbrite). Any ideas?

John

[Roadtrip]

Do a compression test wet and dry before you do anything.

Did you replace all the bearings and seals in the engine? If not, I'd just pull that engine and do it at the same time you change the liner/piston set. Getting cheap in an engine rebuild is usually more expensive than doing it right the first time. With the liners out, be very careful not to damage the chamfered sealing surface of the liner bottoms.

[Ianc]

Honing the liners and using the old pistons is usually ok (you should check the fit by slipping a feeler gauge between each piston and the liner) but never never etc. use old rings. IF you want to avoid a complete rebuild (Roadtrip is right - if you're going to that trouble, do it all) try checking the piston fit and if it's OK replace the rings. But if the engine has more than 80,000 KM on the bearings, might as well do the whole thing.

[jrflyboyVP2]

Hi all, Yes I replaced the crankshaft and connecting rod bearings, all seals, all gaskets. While the engine was out I put in a new clutch, had the trans rebuilt (2nd gear smooth now), new engine mounts, radiator and heater core cleaned at radiator shop, new oil pump. I have a ton of money in the car now, and I can't believe I tried to save $400 by reusing the liners, pistons, and rings. At this point If I go to the trouble of pulling the liners, I think it is best to replace them. As for compression wet/dry. How is that done? Hot or cold? Just crank using starter motor holding compression tester in sparkplug hole and reading gauge? Oh did I mention I am an amature mechanic! But at least I am an engineer and do learn fast!

John