03-16-2008, 10:15 PM
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Location: Huntington Beach California
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Clutch Master Cyl. Problems
Well I went to rebuild my Clutch Master Cyl. and got an excellent diagram from PapaJam/Jim and this is where I ran into problems. Ok looks like the PO replaced the origonal unit with an ATE and shouldn't have. I got the unit out and disasembled, and noticed the shaft was bent badly. I happen to have the previous unit (type unknown, included with the car), and noticed that the shaft on this unit was much shorter. I always wondered why the book said travel should be 12mm. Has anyone else run into this? Also any recommendations? Here are the pictures. In picture 1 you see the old unit that came in the trunk (top) and the ATE unit on the bottom. Take a look at picture 2 and I think I found the reason this unit failed. My main question is: Is the top unit a Benditalia/Bonaldi unit? If it is then I think I need to get a replacement, but cant tell in the IAP catalog if they have this unit. Has anyone else run into this? Also any recommendations?
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1985 Spider Veloce,
Now 2008 Honda Element
was 2005 Honda Element ,
Last edited by gadwhite; 03-16-2008 at 10:18 PM.
Reason: spelling
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03-17-2008, 12:23 AM
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Slacker
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Location: Northern NY, USA
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Dunno about what the top cylinder is, but the bent rod on the bottom looks like it occured due to someone not having the yoke that attaches to the clutch arm set correctly, which after 13mm or so piston travel would bottom out the piston and allow the rod to have something to brace against and bend.
A bit late to measure now obviously, but if it was set with too much a greater distance than what's indicated in the attached, it was going to be trouble and have excellent potential for doing what your photo shows. (a couple indicators would be: did the clutch pedal seem overly high when at rest? Did it not want to touch the floorboard when fully pressed? Did the pedal seem kinda far off the floor before it actually started engaging the disc when you were letting it out to drive away?)
ATE would have been the cylinder of choice on your model year, or at least it is on mine.
Last edited by Tifosi; 03-17-2008 at 12:33 AM.
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03-17-2008, 12:45 AM
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Thanks
Thanks. I went back to the manual and noticed the measurement you mentioned (unfortunatly did not measure before removing). I think I may just order a new unit from IAP, and make sure of this adjustment. I toyed with the idea of straightening it, but at this stage I think I'll just pony up the $120 for a brand new unit( just noticed there not rebuilt in IAP catalog). I'll see what others say in the morning. Thanks for the info.
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1985 Spider Veloce,
Now 2008 Honda Element
was 2005 Honda Element ,
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03-17-2008, 09:13 AM
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I think you mean the 12mm travel is for the clutch slave travel minimum. I have mine set at about 14-15mm. So far (3+yrs), no problem.....
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03-17-2008, 11:01 AM
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reading the manual closer now.
 Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Papa Sr
I think you mean the 12mm travel is for the clutch slave travel minimum. I have mine set at about 14-15mm. So far (3+yrs), no problem.....
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1985 Spider Veloce,
Now 2008 Honda Element
was 2005 Honda Element ,
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03-17-2008, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadwhite
Yep you are correct sir. I realized that last night when I went back through the manual. I'm going to order a new master, slave, and the flexible hose that goes to the slave, measure and check, then measure and check again, and just be done with it. The mystery is how the Master Cyl. rod got so badly bent.
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When you have it all bled, heva a friend (or enemy) go under the car with a light and ruler, metric, and the rest , is easy (pump the clutch and measure, and repeat2-3X). You have to keep the ruler very steady for an accurate reading.
Joe
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03-17-2008, 04:31 PM
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Yup
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Papa Sr
Im glad Gad. (oh, proper English is Yup, not Yep.
When you have it all bled, heva a friend (or enemy) go under the car with a light and ruler, metric, and the rest , is easy (pump the clutch and measure, and repeat2-3X). You have to keep the ruler very steady for an accurate reading.
Joe
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1985 Spider Veloce,
Now 2008 Honda Element
was 2005 Honda Element ,
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03-17-2008, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadwhite
Teenage sons are good for this sort of thing. Thanks for the tips> I may straighten the rod and rebuild this unit to use until the new one comes in.
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It is not like a connecting rod in an engine, for example. Watch the inside bore for pitting. Clean it good first with plain water (glycol fluid is water soluble), then dry quickly, and inspect. If there is just v minor pitting, you should be OK. Maybe just run a fine steel wool inside, then blow out all fines.
Good luck.
Joe
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03-17-2008, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Papa Sr
If there is just v minor pitting, you should be OK. Maybe just run a fine steel wool inside, then blow out all fines.
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I run it with a cordless drill using an in & out and around & around motion (will that get past the censors...?)
Don't over-do the honing. It usually only takes a few seconds - just enough to smooth out the bore. You must avoid making it oversize.
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03-18-2008, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghnl
I'd suggest a brake cylinder hone. Use some cheap brake fluid to keep it lubricated then flush it out well afterwards (all done off the car, BTW).
I run it with a cordless drill using an in & out and around & around motion (will that get past the censors...?)
Don't over-do the honing. It usually only takes a few seconds - just enough to smooth out the bore. You must avoid making it oversize. |
Joe
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03-18-2008, 06:39 PM
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The link in my reply above goes to Amazon, their price is $19 I bought mine locally at an auto parts store - a real auto parts store, not one of the chain stores like AutoZone etc.
You'll use it rarely but it does make the job quite simple when you do need it. And if you buy enough old cars like I do, you'll use it more than once...
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03-19-2008, 01:56 PM
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Did the rebuild
Thought about it and decided to try the rebuild. Straightened the rod, no problem, checked the bore of the cylinder, and no pitting. I think this unit is about a year old. Heres my latest problem; the shaft of the plunger Ithink is too long. If I add the fork clearance needed then the cylinder has to be compressed quite a bit for it to fit with the pedal in the notmal position. Can anyone with an 85 spider take a quick photo of the connection to the pivot and post it here? also take a look at my photo in the first page. Right now Im thinking of cutting off 3/4 of an inch of the threading, so that the shat dosnt bind with the pivot.
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1985 Spider Veloce,
Now 2008 Honda Element
was 2005 Honda Element ,
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03-19-2008, 02:12 PM
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I'd be leery of hacking off 3/4" from the rod. Are you sure it is the right master cylinder?
Are you sure the clutch pivot rod is OK? Could it have moved and been re-welded incorrectly? How does the clutch pedal sit compared to the brake pedal? It should be equal or slightly higher than the brake pedal.
Look in these threads for info about the clutch pedal pivot:
clutch problems
clutch issue |
03-19-2008, 06:02 PM
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Clutch pedal
Eric
The clutch pedal sits slightly higher. but this is with the plunger partially depressed. In order to install the Master Cyl. I have to set it this way and screw the fork back on the rod so the pivot does not rub on the end of the threads of the rod. The pivot looks completely stock. From the diagram sent to me by PapaJam this master cyl looks correct with the exception of the rod from the fork into the cylinder. I think if I take off 3/4 of an inch I can get the measurement from the pivot to the cyl correct, and I then plan to check the movement of the slave cyl (12mm) under the car.
BTW: The Cyl is an ATE
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was 2005 Honda Element ,
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03-20-2008, 10:11 PM
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'84 manufacture ~ '85 MY Spider Graduate 
