02-27-2008, 03:53 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Milpitas CA
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I ran Spirax mixed with one qt of redline for about 150,000 miles in the Milano then went to all Spirax
then I went to all redline ns and then redline worked the best for me.
then I put in a rebult box with the redline.
I have Spirax in the spider and redline in the Milano both with now rebult boxes and lightend gears. and the Milano shifts much better. the Spirax seems to need a long time to warm up. the redline is good to go as soon as I turn the key.
I did run ATF in the spider before I got the new box and it seemed to help a lot. but I do not know what the long term damage might be using ATF. and as I knew I was going to put in a new box I did not care at the time.
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1987 black Milano Verde
1972 White spider 2000 Veloce
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02-27-2008, 03:55 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Camlachie Ontario Canada
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Papajam, I think the differences are in "slip" or "shear" charachteristics. These are lumped in with the "friction modifier" package.
If the oil is too "slippery" it will not bring the syncros to speed.
You can reduce friction, but in doing so you don't want the oil to be too slippery, the force that drags the synchro.
The Redline has this NS designation (Non Slip? Neutral Slip?) they formulate specifically to achieve that desireable Shear or Slip characteristic, while reducing friction on the load bearing surfaces.
My understanding anyway FWIW. Best regards, Elio
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02-27-2008, 04:38 PM
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with the Librarian
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Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New Jersey USA
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 Quote:
Originally Posted by Gubi
Your first two sentences there seem contradictory?
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 My apologies for adding to an already confusing issue.
So the question remains. Why can the use of a non-EP oil in the gearbox result in working syncros?
Answer; the amount of EP additives found in most oils (except Spirax) are too slippery to allow the syncros to work properly.
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Jim
Series 1 Euro 1750 GTV
Series 2 US 1750 GTV
Series 3 Spider Veloce
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02-27-2008, 07:31 PM
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But Mad North-Northwest
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: SF Bay Area, CA
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Well, I'd agree with you, except that the EP additives don't work by making the oil more slippery, they work by chemically reacting at the point of metal-to-metal contact when the oil film breaks down. So I still don't know the answer for you.
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Tom
1991 Spider
1987 Milano Gold
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02-27-2008, 07:42 PM
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But Mad North-Northwest
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: SF Bay Area, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slyalfa
I have Spirax in the spider and redline in the Milano both with now rebult boxes and lightend gears. and the Milano shifts much better. the Spirax seems to need a long time to warm up. the redline is good to go as soon as I turn the key.
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Tom
1991 Spider
1987 Milano Gold
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02-27-2008, 07:55 PM
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Registered User
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gearbox oil
Quote:
Originally Posted by papajam
So the question remains. Why can the use of a non-EP oil in the gearbox result in working syncros?
Answer; the amount of EP additives found in most oils (except Spirax) are too slippery to allow the syncros to work properly.
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From what I remember, the API GL5 spec changed over the years, calling for more and more Extreme Pressure additive - or else Alfas really require GL4, which is an obsolete spec. As mentioned, the presence of this additive reduces the friction needed by the synchro rings to do their job. Too much EP ruins their action.
John ended up recommending a mix of GL5 and GL1 oils, GL1 being a non-EP oil often used fro tractors (and ZF gearboxes such as in a Montreal). SAE 50 is a substitute for GL1.
As to the switch to straight GL1... Once a gearbox has run on G5, EP additives, like antiwear, leave a surface film. But I'm afraid this film will wear away, leaving too little EP to protect the synchros.
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02-28-2008, 05:48 AM
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with the Librarian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gubi
Well, I'd agree with you, except that the EP additives don't work by making the oil more slippery, they work by chemically reacting at the point of metal-to-metal contact when the oil film breaks down.
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This explains why replacing an EP oil in a gearbox with a non-EP lubricant can result in the syncros starting to work again. One should also note that when Alfa switched the syncro material in 1968, the sticker by the gearbox fill plug was changed to say something like 'do not use EP oil', or words to that effect.
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Jim
Series 1 Euro 1750 GTV
Series 2 US 1750 GTV
Series 3 Spider Veloce
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02-28-2008, 10:25 AM
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Location: Pequannock, NJ
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...what material are the synchros in the Spider gearboxes made of?
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Tony G. in NJ
 87 Graduate - Calimero  '90 Toyota Tercel - Babbaluci
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02-28-2008, 10:36 AM
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But Mad North-Northwest
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: SF Bay Area, CA
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Close. It's high temperature at the point of metal to metal contact. If the metal surfaces don't touch then the EP lube doesn't come into play. Good discussion and illustration at the link (taught me a few things, that's for sure):
Oil analysis and lubrication learning cennter
Could this affect the synchronizer operation? Mongo dunno. But if the non-EP works better because you get more friction because you have more metal-metal contact, I'm not sure that's the way you want to go.
I think you've got it backwards on the synchro material: the pre-'68s use non EP (Dentax GL-1), the post-'68s use EP (Spirax). The thread below seems to agree with this.
transmission oil
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Tom
1991 Spider
1987 Milano Gold
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02-28-2008, 10:37 AM
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But Mad North-Northwest
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: SF Bay Area, CA
Posts: 2,073
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WopJob
...what material are the synchros in the Spider gearboxes made of?
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Tom
1991 Spider
1987 Milano Gold
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02-28-2008, 11:43 AM
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Location: Pequannock, NJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gubi
They're molybdenum. Everything in the modern Alfa tranny is GL-5 compatible - no brass.
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Additionally, since Gl-4 works with Molly then it can be used too.
case closed?
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Tony G. in NJ
87 Graduate - Calimero '90 Toyota Tercel - Babbaluci
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02-28-2008, 01:28 PM
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with the Librarian
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Location: New Jersey USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WopJob
case closed?
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Jim
Series 1 Euro 1750 GTV
Series 2 US 1750 GTV
Series 3 Spider Veloce
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02-28-2008, 02:53 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Elkhorn, NE
Posts: 37
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I purchase Redline products from Jack Beck in Omaha, NE. He used to race Alfas and still builds Alfa race cars, engines, etc. When I bought my '86 Spider last summer I went to him to purchase some oil for the transmission. He sold me Redline MTL. I later read some threads here that had me worried. I called back and was assured that MTL is all he has ever used in Alfa's (at least of the Redline products) and he has had no problems. |
02-29-2008, 11:18 AM
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Location: augusta ks
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I put Redline 7590ns in mine. The only time Ive driven it (around the block, on 2-3 cyliners and not-very-good brakes) I had to really slam the gears to keep moving so it wouldnt die and to slow down and such. I didnt have a single crunch and no over-excessive pressure to get it in gear. seems to be good stuff.
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Dan
69 spider 105.62
[B]Fabbrica Augusta[/B]
Moto~[B]SERVIZIO[/B]~Auto
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03-01-2008, 06:49 AM
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Whew!! Glad this is cleared up now..LOL
One really needs to be an organic chemist to get all this stuff........
Jake at IAP was telling me a few days ago, that some of the claims the oil companies make should be taken with a grain of salt, in other words, and that the only real way to improve the tranny is to lighten the gears, cuz alfa made them waaaaay too heavy for this little car. (and of course, check rings and all while youre in there). This sounds like the right direction.......
Anyone know someone that can do a good job of this at fair price?
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