Engine swap from a 92 or 93 Spider into my 87 Quad; looking for opinions, pros & cons

shadowburn · #1 (**permalink**) 01-11-2008, 06:00 PM

Ok, so an opportunity has been presented to me for doing an engine swap from a 92 or 93 Spider and installing it in my 87 Quadrifoglio.

Mine is slowly dying, losing compression in one cylinder, probably some burned valves, leaking oil, rings and seals probably have to be done, etc. etc. I had the engine rebuilt years back and was never really happy with the job that was done. I could have mine rebuilt again. This is one option.

This 92 or 93 is used, not rebuilt, 22,000 original miles, $1600.00 plus about $450-500 to pull mine out and install this one. I should not have to rebuild it and can use it the way it is with no compatibility issues.

I'm told that I would use my water pump, crank and pulleys, and exhaust manifold, as well as all the FI stuff that is on my car maybe, replacing one or two injectors, a new rear main seal, and of course new coolant and oil. The only other thing is the AC compressor, which I'm not too worried about.

I should then have an engine that I can use for awhile that is newer, with the stock higher compression, & larger cams, of a 92 that is in better shape all the way around.

To have mine rebuilt will cost about the same or more, still stock with the lower compression and smaller cams.

What do you think? Does this sound like something to be taken advantage of?
Should I just have my original engine rebuilt again?

**Zunige** · #2 (**permalink**) 01-11-2008, 06:21 PM

Not sure if I could render an opinion of any value without a bit more info, so if I may, I'd like to ask:

How many miles on your original engine?

Would the same outfit that did the first rebuild be doing it again?

Are they the same outfit that would install the new engine?

Would you not install the series 4 Motronic fuel and ignition system with the new engine?

How long has the new engine been sitting?

How do you know the new engine's rings are not stuck?

Best regards,

shadowburn · #3 (**permalink**) 01-11-2008, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zunige

Not sure if I could render an opinion of any value without a bit more info, so if I may, I'd like to ask:

How many miles on your original engine?

Would the same outfit that did the first rebuild be doing it again?

Are they the same outfit that would install the new engine?

Would you not install the series 4 Motronic fuel and ignition system with the new engine?

How long has the new engine been sitting?

How do you know the new engine's rings are not stuck?

Best regards,

**Zunige** · #4 (**permalink**) 01-11-2008, 07:42 PM

Well, based on your answers I would say that the new engine is a good one, and since it is much more cost effective to swap the engine, I would follow the advice of your mechanic and go with the new engine... Of course, I would still hope that other BBers would offer an opinion here...

Best regards,

shadowburn · #5 (**permalink**) 01-11-2008, 07:56 PM

Yeah, it sounds like it may be a good option. I guess a couple of my questions are, is it really possible to swap an engine like this without compatibility problems and how does it affect the value of the car, originality wise. This is my daily driver, so the major value is to keep it running, but the originality factor is always on my mind. Mechanic's opinion is its an ALFA engine that is better, with better compression, better cams, and works.

Elio Comello · #6 (**permalink**) 01-11-2008, 08:23 PM

Your new engine will have different rad connections, you will have to sort this out. You will have to reuse your old exh manifold to fit your existing exhaust. You will need to swap your old waterpump, cause the S4 pump does not have a pump driven fan. The Ljet FI and Engine ECU will not interface with the S4 Injectors and many different engine sensors (for example, flywheel sensors and VVT).
You will need a number of wiring mods to sort out sensors location etc., (in fact you will need to figure out how to work without certain sensors (ie the S4 has one timing sensor on the front, the S3 has 2 on the flywheel. The S4 does not use a AAV and a totally different idle control system.....etc)
To my mind a good S3 engine would be a better bet than to try to graft an S4.

Good luck and keep us updated on your experience!

TTFN Elio

shadowburn · #7 (**permalink**) 01-11-2008, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elio Comello

Your new engine will have different rad connections, you will have to sort this out. You will have to reuse your old exh manifold to fit your existing exhaust. You will need to swap your old waterpump, cause the S4 pump does not have a pump driven fan. The Ljet FI and Engine ECU will not interface with the S4 Injectors and many different engine sensors (for example, flywheel sensors and VVT).
You will need a number of wiring mods to sort out sensors location etc., (in fact you will need to figure out how to work without certain sensors (ie the S4 has one timing sensor on the front, the S3 has 2 on the flywheel. The S4 does not use a AAV and a totally different idle control system.....etc)
To my mind a good S3 engine would be a better bet than to try to graft an S4.

Good luck and keep us updated on your experience!

TTFN Elio

**John M** · #8 (**permalink**) 01-12-2008, 01:35 AM

You can certainly go either way. If your mechanic can rebuild for within the cost of puchasing the 92 motor, I would rebuild my current motor. I might rebuild even if it was a little more than the cost of the 92 motor. That way you know what you got. Even a 92 with 22k miles is questionable. First, many of those clusters got changed out over the years for failure, so that 22k might not be accurate. And you don't know what the infamous previous owner did to the car...afterall its in the junkyard now!

But if you trust your mechanic, and he is worth your trust, you'll end up with a great rebuilt motor. Most of the power difference between the two (minor at best) was derived from both the free flowing exhaust header (which you are using your restrictive old one) and the compression/cam lift. By using the old manifold...which you have to in order to mate to your exhaust down pipe....you'll negate any performance benefit. Just food for thought.

Best Regards,
John M

**ghnl** · #9 (**permalink**) 01-12-2008, 10:03 AM

$1600 for a used engine seems steep to me (but then again, I am cheap...). What is the estimate for rebuilding the current engine?

If it were me, I'd rebuild the old engine. And do a lot of the work myself. Much of the expense is in R/R (removing/replacing) components. Machine work will usually have to be 'farmed out' but then you wouldn't be paying for the mechanic's mark-up on the machine work. Same thing for parts. A mechanic buys them at wholesale prices and charges you retail plus his time to install them. Even if you have to buy some tools (like an engine hoist) you could still come out ahead AND have some tools & knowledge to keep!

Anyway, physically the S4 engine will fit fine. You (or your mechanic) will have to swap out a lot of items to keep the L-jet system functioning. The L-jet page (see my signature block) should be useful for you.

the_sicilian · #10 (**permalink**) 01-12-2008, 12:09 PM

the fact that my spider's engine has already proven it can go 150k without failing is all the incentive i need, personally, to have spent the 3000$ on rebuilding the entire head, and replacing most sensors incrementally.

you could offer me a 22k engine and i would flatly turn you down. its not a proven engine. in-fact , in order to have such low miles means it sat around most of its life and died a basket-case.

for the same moeny i would take my current engine in a newyork minute.

engines are meant to run, not sit.

imagine a boat engine. do you want one that has crossed the ocean multiple times and brought the crew back to port everytime, or one that has sat docked and unused ?

**Zunige** · #11 (**permalink**) 01-12-2008, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_sicilian

...you could offer me a 22k engine and i would flatly turn you down. its not a proven engine. in-fact , in order to have such low miles means it sat around most of its life and died a basket-case.
...

Elio Comello · #12 (**permalink**) 01-12-2008, 01:32 PM

When all is said and done, if you put the wrecker's S4 engine into your 87 without at least taking the head off you are asking for trouble. There is something wrong with your economics, if you plan to spend 2K$ to put in an "as is" engine. If you suspect a valve problem in your current engine, wouldn't a head rebuild be much more appropriate? I doubt that the 22K engine you are looking at has any genetic similarity to Enrique's.

Best regards, Elio

shadowburn · #13 (**permalink**) 01-12-2008, 07:17 PM

Thanks for the replies. Since I'm posting this query in this forum, you can surmise that I'm not completely sold on the idea of this engine swap. I'm exploring the options available to me. Still unsure which way I'm going to go.

If I'm understanding correctly, this engine would fit & work in my car albeit with a few mods maybe.

Quote:

If it were me, I'd rebuild the old engine. And do a lot of the work myself.