Papajam's dual brake line system

[fgc]

Dear Papajam

I read with great interest some of your earlier posts where you mentioned that you have choosen to fit a dual line to your car. But you went by way of using only 1 booster for the front and no booster for the rear.

I want to fit a dual line too but as I do not have space for a second booster, your way of fitting really interest me.

Do you have to do anything special to achieve this? Also what about the brake balance between the front and back? How do you adjust and achieve that?

Finally, how does the car brake and its performance? What about pedal feel?

I had a scare recently when one of my brake line started leaking at the joint. The pedal started going softer and softer. Had that replaced but from the moment I bought my car 1 over year ago, changing to a dual line had been the biggest modification that I want to do.

Will appreciate your input and anyone elses input on this matter or alternative way to achieve dual line without boosters like using dual masters etc.

Thanks
fgc
1967 spider veloce

[papajam]

Unfortunately, I can't answer all your questions since the conversion hasn't been completed yet. But this is what I know so far.
I chose the single booster for two reasons; to maintain as much of the original 'look' of the car as possible and that some Alfa club racers in the UK have done this same conversion with good results. So if it works for a track car, I figure it must be OK for a mostly street car.
I think the only thing special about the conversion is coming up with the hardware to do it. 1969 US version master cylinders don't grow on trees. An easily obtained clutch fluid reservoir needs to be added and the 5 port (4 brakelines & 1 brakelight switch) junction block on the lower right bulkhead needs to be changed to a 4 port unit. Found one of these at www.alfaholics.com in the UK. Some lengths of 3/16" and 1/4" brakeline pretty much rounds out the parts list.
I'll be using the stock prop valve to start with to see how the brake balance is. If need be, a manually adjustable valve mounted in the stock location will be installed.
Ooh! Your Duetto has a mechanical clutch linkage, doesn't it? In that case, you don't need a clutch fluid reservoir but a tandem brake fluid reservoir as in the pic. And a way to mount it!

[fgc]

Dear Papajam,

Thanks for the info. I am really keen to replicate what you are doing. Is there any web site etc that has details of what you described about this particular euro style of linking up the brakes?

Yes, I really want to keep the original look for my car too with 1 booster and will be hunting for a dual master cylinder.

You were right on the money when I last posted a thread about my strange brakes where it alternates between hard and soft pedal. You concluded that it was the brake master cylinder. Went to the workshop today and as you said, it turned out to be faulty master cylinder!

I wish I could just swap in the dual line arrangement immediately but will have to settle for a master cylinder rebuild for the time being.

Oh, my clutch isnt a cable but has the earlier version of hydralics where it requires manual adjustment unlike the later one where it would automatically adjust for the play. The slave does not look like the later ones but is kinda shorter and fatter. So I do have the same reseviour in the car as you showed in your picture. I have just obtained a spare clutch reserviour from a later car and will proceed to separate the 2 circuits as a start.

Would really like to know how this dual line arrangement work out. I am still hunting for a brakes guy who will be willing to undertake the job. Is it difficult to run the brake lines? Several of the shops here dont seem keen to undertake this conversion.

Cheers
fgc

[papajam]

Don't know of any website that details the conversion........except this one! Granted, I'm in the middle of my first conversion so I'm no expert but I can detail what's been done so far. I think the first thing to do is to decide who is going to do the work; you or someone else. Paying someone else to do it, which could be pricey, eliminates all the challenges and skinned knuckles. Doing it yourself, although time consuming, will ensure that the conversion will not only get done the way you want it but will bring with it a certain satisfaction that money can't buy.
For starters, here's the basic before and after schematics of the hydraulic circuits.

[fgc]

Dear Papajam,

Thanks for the wonderfully clear and schematic made the whole thing look so simple!!!

Which is then a wonder why it cost so much to get people to run the brake lines!

I have actually asked a couple of mechanics and they dont seem too keen to do the job and when pushed, would say like it will take tons of time and cost even more and be very complicated! I thought its just simple hydralics at work???

Honestly, I have no illusion as to my own ability or confidence but is it difficult to run new brake lines for our car? Do you think its within the abilities of most home mechanics with some handy tools?? Or is it akin to rocket science?

Which is the difficult part? Making the double flaring? Bending the pipes? I do want a car that is as safe as I can make it and you are right about doing things yourself, you can control the quality and you know exactly what went into the work done!

Any surprises to look out for if I should choose to attempt this?

Thanks again for your kind advise and help

Cheers
fgc

[jimcheney]

Not to horn in on Papajam's tutorial here, but the hardest part of running lines is just figuring out where to put them. It really comes down to planning the job.

If you are willing to do patient planning, you can collect all the parts you need, study the current set-up, and devise the best approach. So it certainly isnt difficult from that stand-point.

The hardest part of doing the actual work is flaring the lines depending on what type of material you choose. With stainless steel, I've had all kinds of problems making a nice double flare with the tool kits available at Sears. Single flares are easier but still touchy. Some people solve the problem by using copper lines, which are easy to flare nicely.

Bending the tubing to shape is very easy, but takes some practice to make a nice job of it (also get a bending tool - they arent expensive). Its easy to get the right shape, but takes a lot of fiddling to get lines to run tightly around firewalls and framerails when you have mutiple bends. Lines are cheap though, and you can afford to make several tries to get it right.

What I would do is get some stainless lines from Napa (available in many lengths) cut the ends off, put on the appropriate fittings, and have someone like Midas use their specialized tool to make the flares. You just have to leave a few inches of straight pipe at the end so it fits in their clamp.

I was forced to craft a new clutch line for my Land Rover a couple weeks back when mine broke in the course of replacing the clutch cylinder, so I have some recent emotional experience with hardlines and flaring tools.

BTW - most mechanics wont want to do this because the money is in "remove & replace" jobs, as opposed to experiemental custom work. Even factory dealers will sooner replace an engine that replace a faulty component. Its just a matter of money versus time - they dont want to earn you ire by mega-billing you if it takes them a long time to figure out any more than they want to eat the potential extra cost by quoting you a flat figure up-front.

[papajam]

Not horning in at all Jim. You must know I'm a lousy typist and wanted to save me some time.

Time, by the way, is a key word in any conversion. As in lots of it if the job is be done properly. I think the bending of the lines and all the trial fitting prior to flaring them is by far the most time consuming even with easy access to the brakeline body clips. Count on even more time if other components are in the way, like the engine.

I'll have to disagree with Jim on the use of stainless line simply because it's a b*tch to work with and a bit of overkill for the application. I'd stay away from copper line as well since it's quite soft and prone to stress and vibration fractures which is why it's illegal in the US to use it in automotive brake applications.

If your late RHD 67 is anything like our early LHD 68, there are no less than 4 different brakeline fittings; basically 3/8" X 24 in the engine bay, 10mm X 1.0mm at the wheels and 12mm X 1.0 mm & 7/16" X something at the master cylinders. Obviously, you can reuse old fittings but you will need some additional ones for the new lines.
There are also two different types of flares on the lines; an inverted double flare and an ISO bubble flare. The attached pics show the two flares which, by the way, are on the same brakeline! (booster to junction block). This is the ISO flare...

[papajam]

...and this is the inverted flare.

[beatle_bayly]

I too would stay away from stainless brake line and just use normal steel line(available everywhere). Stainless is more difficult to work with and is more prone to breakages at bends and especially flares.

[papajam]

Another challenge was to figure out how to attach the 8mm ID hose from the fluid reservoir to the 1/4" master cylinder feedline without using a clamp and squeezing the crap out of the hose. Pictured is Alfa's solution that didn't require any clamps on the hose.

[papajam]

I ended up soldering a short length of 5/16" brakeline to the 1/4" feedline.

[papajam]

The bulge in the hose at the 5/16" portion of the line is evident in the final product.

[davbert]

Papajam,

I'm in the process of swaping the motor in my 68 spica GTV next weekend. I think now would be the perfect time for me to remove both boosters. Are the fittings on the end of lines from the MC same as the ones coming out from the boosters? If they are the same, I was thinks of looping them back and attaching them directly to the junction block...bypassing the both booster. Do you know of any shop that can make me a pair of lines from the MC to the junction block? Would they have the correct fittings or would I have to send mine in to be reused? I hear the fittings are very easy to damage when removing them. Do you think it would be helpful to add some head with a propane torch to losen them up?

trying to get this thing ready for The Italian Happening Track Day....

regards

davbert

[papajam]

Unfortunately, the fittings at the M/C are different than those at the boosters; 10mm X 1.0mm at the M/C and 3/8" X 24 at the boosters. However, that doesn't really matter. The question is what is the fitting size at the 'junction block' (which is actually the brake failure warning switch)? If they are 3/8 x 24 then it could be a matter of just rearranging the lines that are already there; installing the booster output lines into the top of the failure switch.
Another way to bypass the boosters would be to simply connect the two lines at each booster together with an inverted flare union, available at any autoparts store.

Where are you located?

[davbert]

thanks papajam

BTW I'm in the detroit area

Yes, Hopefully I can reroute the lines to go into the junction port rather than the boosters. Do steel lines become brittle with age? I'm wary of bending older brake lines and over stressing them. I prefer to put in 2 new lines via MC to the junction port if I can find a shop to m