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Old 10-18-2006, 07:40 PM
60sRacer 60sRacer is offline
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The roll bar height issue is a two-edged sword;

I understand their concerns - there have been a few accidents - not Alfas - involving roll-overs of open cars. No lawsuits yet AFIK, but ... It's too bad really - your car shows so well that spiders are such graceful cars when well perepared for an XC or track event, but the required roll hoop - 2 inches above the top of the driver's helmet - is just UGLY! And if you change drivers you can be illegal again!


As to the drop ends for the front suspension - I just checked on Max's web site and didn't find them either. Just send him an email. Max is one of the Alfa good-guys, always willing to help! If I understand rightly, the dropped outer end (I think it's actually adjustable) allows you to dial out all bump steer, so that there is NO toe-in change with suspension deflection. On a fast sweeper, this has an amazing stabilizing effect. One car I've seen that made the change - already a good car with a good driver - gained over a second at Laguna Seca. It might actually take the total panic of the corkscrew there!

Most of the cars I've watched here are really set up for club racing on the track, with XC as a fun sideline. AROSC and VARA add high penalties for wheels and tires out of the 'stock' parameters, so its 14 by 7's mostly, which don't need flares. Still, your car looks just marvelous.

Quote:
I'm stuck with SCCA Solo rules, and Alfas are almost non-existant in that world.

Yeah, as with any serious racing, it really is all aboout what rules apply to your group. Want an off the wall thought though? Take a good steel alfa spider hardtop, stripped of the soft stuff; reinforce it a bit for hoop and cross strength, and to carry a load around the rear and side windows; reinforce the rear body, side, and windshield latches where the top attaches to the body (Bolts maybe if legal?). This could carry the spider's sill torque loads in a virtual box from the rear shock towers and upper b-pillars, thru the front windshield to the firewall. Done right it could be ten times stiffer than the bolt-on chassis bar, almost like a coupe, and made of standard alfa parts. At least as good as a Petty bar and close to a full roll cage.... Whether this would be legal is of course up to your local rule book.

Quote:
A bunch of us have been trying to get Murray to come to the 2007 Detroit AROC convention. His car must be the ultimate Spider.

He sure did everything a good engineer would want! Except that it still has all the comfort stuff that adds weight. If he gets the racing bug bad enough, he'll end up with his lady driving the Alfa, while he drives an F-350 Deisel towing an all-out stripped racer...

Quote:
As you know, autocrossers generally make good racers (car placement skill, concentration, etc. Remember, George Folmer, Hurley Haywood and Peter Gregg started their careers in autocross). And... maybe it's time to get your driving shoes out of the closet. I'm 68, and know someone in Louisville who runs autocross at age 84.

It's not age that keeps me away, it's business. I'm barely 58! Making money is nice, but it sure gets in the way of other good stuff! I'm gonna cut out enough time in the next year to rebuild/restore my old Duetto. It'll be at least XC worthy by then. You never GET time for things, you just gotta TAKE it!

Quote:
I have stock gearbox ratios but changed from a 4.56:1 differential to a 4.11 to have a "longer" 2nd gear. I rarely use 1st, but a friend in Detroit has a GTA Jr with the close ratio gears and he uses 1st to good advantage on some autocross courses.

My experience too. Just drive on one or two gears on a good XC course, so you either choose the right gear in a CR box, or swap around the rear end so you spend most time in 2nd. Been that way since I was a boy racer! the CR sets really shine on a big track where the turns vary from top-end sweepers to 1st gear hairpins. Alfa's stock 1st is a street start-off gear, too low for a good running gear on any track, so without a CR set you end up driving only 4 gears spread out a bit too much.

And you still dial in the rear for each track. We used to have different rears set up for Laguna Seca and Willow Glen for example and just bolt in the right one. Our GTA had 5.36, 5.12, 4.78, 4.56 axles all packaged up. Choose a gear set that got you to redline at the end of the long backstretch for each track in top gear and bolt int he right axle, then stir up the right gear for all the other turns and straights...

XC is more about driving and car balance than about shifting; easier to learn. I always set up for oversteer - never had enough power to just slash and burn like the Cobras and 'Vettes did. But could beat their times occassionally 'cause you really could make the little alfas dance while they plowed up cones.

Oh, back on he knuckle risers. The 2L spindles are a bit taller than the 1600's. But the GTA knuckles were almost a 2 inch addition. It changes the upper arm angle to get a lot more negative camber on bounce, so the outside tire would stick a LOT better - on A008's or Goodyear track slicks of the 70's. Your Hoosiers might find it too much. Hard to get a tire temp map on an XC course to tell, but you sure would see it on a tight track. If yo can do a tire map: if the outside edge is cooler than the center, it's not working hard enough into the turn; then more bounce camber will get you better stick. If it's already hotter than the center or inner, you've too much. Ride height as well as arm geometry matter. BTW - our old GTA was as squirly and a Chip'n Dale Dancer because of this. Bump steer could put you thru the fence, and the knuckles made it worse....

Anyway, thanks to all of you for posting the story and photos! You really can smell the rubber and gas fumes, taste the sharp bitterness of adrenelin! Damn, I don't even FIT in my old driving suit. Gotta add Simpson to the parts list..........

Robert
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 10-18-2006, 07:56 PM
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John M John M is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msiert
A couple things you forgot; 5/8" adj. rear sway bar, Jack Beck's modified trailing arms to hold std 5" oval track springs, very,very low stance, and shinny red paint with race stickers.

Yes...its definitely the shinny red paint that kicks my arse!!!!!! George runs with the stickers to create a little drag and make me and Budsy feel better!

Best Regards,

John M
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1978 AR Spider Veloce 2000.....the first and still here
1984 AR Spider Veloce............the second & gone to the parts bin
1992 AR Spider Veloce............the third and still here
1991 AR 164L........................traded on the SS
1965 AR Sprint Speciale..........in boxes.
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Old 10-20-2006, 07:42 AM
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John M John M is offline
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I thought I would post this up for prosperity's sake! And of course to forever immortalize this moment in time.

Here are the results:

Final Results By Class

PAX Results (all classes combined and equalized)

RAW Time Results (all classes combined)

Best Regards,
John M
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1978 AR Spider Veloce 2000.....the first and still here
1984 AR Spider Veloce............the second & gone to the parts bin
1992 AR Spider Veloce............the third and still here
1991 AR 164L........................traded on the SS
1965 AR Sprint Speciale..........in boxes.
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Old 10-20-2006, 09:20 AM
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Zunige Zunige is offline
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E quem vao a ganar o proximo domingo? I'm trying to keep in tune with the Joranal de Noticias, and the fact that this is now an international story. But it translates to: "So who is going to win next Sunday?"

John - are you going to repeat, or is Bud going to "kick your arse"? ... I'd like to hear the prediction, and I'm noticing that Bud is not saying anything... Could it be that he is preparing something special for you?

Best regards,
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Spider 74, 84 & 87
164 93L & 95Q
Milano 88 Verde
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 10-20-2006, 03:09 PM
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Well....I went by Budsy's again today to make sure he is still alive! I took my sister-in-law and my son with me to join in the festivities. Bud says he has a reply for the bb that he is crafting to shut me down! I await his post most impatiently!

As to who will win come next Sunday....only the Alfa Gods know! I know that it will be throw down, knock out, competition. I just hope I don't have to turn Budsy on the back stretch to steal a victory! RubbN's racing! On a side note, my sister-in-law and brother will be there too in their Mazda Speed Protege. They are saying that they will spank all the Alfas....including George! We may have to let the air out of their tires literally.

Enrique, I hear that there is a possibility of you coming down to run. Well you had better make it a reality and come for some big fun!

Best Regards,
John M
__________________
1978 AR Spider Veloce 2000.....the first and still here
1984 AR Spider Veloce............the second & gone to the parts bin
1992 AR Spider Veloce............the third and still here
1991 AR 164L........................traded on the SS
1965 AR Sprint Speciale..........in boxes.
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Old 10-20-2006, 08:26 PM
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Love the story with the pics...Thanx.

One question...what's with the hand in the air in several of the pics? Are you giving Budsy a handicap?
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Last edited by RedSpider; 10-21-2006 at 07:30 AM.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 10-20-2006, 09:43 PM
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John M John M is offline
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That is me trying to brace myself so I don't fall out of the driver's seat....using my elbow into the side of the back of the other seat. Did I mention that I beat Budsy one handed!

Best Regards,
John M
__________________
1978 AR Spider Veloce 2000.....the first and still here
1984 AR Spider Veloce............the second & gone to the parts bin
1992 AR Spider Veloce............the third and still here
1991 AR 164L........................traded on the SS
1965 AR Sprint Speciale..........in boxes.
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Old 10-20-2006, 10:08 PM
bianchi1 bianchi1 is offline
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60's racer? what is a droped outer link?i might start a-x my car, just for fon, but i am looking for a fast street handler.thanks
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Old 10-21-2006, 12:58 AM
60sRacer 60sRacer is offline
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Re: dropped link: For a lowered competition suspension in an alfa, the suspension geometry is a bit messed up, and the spindles are tilted inward to increase the negative camber for better traction as the car rolls and twists in hard turns. The inner bushings of the lower A-arm are lower than the spindle's lower ball joint; the steering arms are in yet another plane. As a result, the wheels actually turn ("steer") as the suspension moves - bump is up and rebound is down; called "bump steer", this makes the car unstable on uneven surfaces or during turns and braking, as the suspension loads and unloads.

These cars were well designed in their original configuration to have minimal bump steer. But racers have made some changes to improve traction with track tires that upsets the balanced geometry. We get better traction, but give up forgiveness in the handling. Driving a car with severe bump steer can be downright scary - it's easy when your at the 101% edge to go over the cliff with a little roughness in the road, or a tad extra braking when you entered a turn just a bit too fast. You really have to know how your car will respond to pretty small upsets, and correct for it fast. Or you'll make a BIG backwards donut and slide out of control into the over-runs and tire barriers. Or other cars, or worse.

By adding the right pieces to the outer arm, the suspension geometry can be corrected. Adjustments to the droop of the steering arms helps too, as does the use of short ratio arms. When you add knuckle risers from the GTA racing set-up, you make the problem worse, as does setting up the car for high negative camber. It actually takes some care to get the right drops and bends to take the bump steer out, and usualy is done custom for each car and set-up.

I haven't seen their cars, but from what I read here and on their web pages, the guys at alfaholics seem to have worked hard at getting all these things right, including making some special pieces.

Generally these are not good street parts - they are made with open heim joints or spherical bearings that have little lubrication, no compliance, and no weather protection at all. It takes almost constant maintenance and frequent replacement of expensive bits to keep them working well.

But they do make an all-out track car a bit easier to drive fast.

You still have to be a good (great?) driver. Never saw a part or mod that ever changed that. Our team had a driver 'back in the day' that could make a worn out sedan dance better than many owners of hot modified cars. I saw him beat L3 corvettes witht an 88 hp Berlina on a tight XC course. And then take their cars and beat his own times handily.

As you read above, George's very well prepared car had very different times with different drivers!

Robert
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Old 10-25-2006, 05:39 AM
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John M John M is offline
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4 days until the pain train cometh again for ole Budsy. The taste of defeat is just around the corner ole pal!!!!!

WHOO WHOOOOO chuga chuga chuga chuga chuga chuga chuga chuga WHOO WHOOOOOOOOO Pain train coming for Budsy!!!!


Some inspirational quotes for Budsy on the eve of his second straight loss....

“If you learn from defeat, you haven't really lost.”

“Failure should be our teacher, not our undertaker. Failure is delay, not defeat. It is a temporary detour, not a dead end. Failure is something we can avoid only by saying nothing, doing nothing, and being nothing.”

“Fear is a habit; so is self-pity, defeat, anxiety, despair, hopelessness and resignation. You can eliminate all of these negative habits with two simple resolves: I can!! and I will!!”

“In the moment when I truly understand my enemy, understand him well enough to defeat him, then in that very moment I also love him.”

“Life is truly known only to those who suffer, lose, endure adversity and stumble from defeat to defeat.”

“The greatest test of courage on earth is to bear defeat without losing heart.”

“Wax on, wax off, Grasshopper.”

“If you smell bad fragrance after race, its because you are driving like sh!t”

“Stupid boy use yokohamas and you whoop his arse, smart boy use hoosiers and whoop your's.”


Best Regards,
John M
__________________
1978 AR Spider Veloce 2000.....the first and still here
1984 AR Spider Veloce............the second & gone to the parts bin
1992 AR Spider Veloce............the third and still here
1991 AR 164L........................traded on the SS
1965 AR Sprint Speciale..........in boxes.
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Old 10-25-2006, 06:17 AM
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John M John M is offline
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Bud appearantly took a driving course over the last week and received his competition racing license.....

Best Regards,
John M
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__________________
1978 AR Spider Veloce 2000.....the first and still here
1984 AR Spider Veloce............the second & gone to the parts bin
1992 AR Spider Veloce............the third and still here
1991 AR 164L........................traded on the SS
1965 AR Sprint Speciale..........in boxes.
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Old 10-25-2006, 11:06 AM
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Zunige Zunige is offline
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Quote:
Posted by John M
4 days until the pain train cometh again for ole Budsy. The taste of defeat is just around the corner ole pal!!!!!
John,
Does this mean that you are finally going to come out and state unequivocally that you will defeat Bud? Or are you just trying to build up your confidence, while Bud is quietly awaiting his moment of victory?!! (A prediction would merit special coverage by the Jornal de Noticias. )

Best regards,
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Enrique
Spider 74, 84 & 87
164 93L & 95Q
Milano 88 Verde
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2006, 11:27 AM
60sRacer 60sRacer is offline
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"If you think you're good, you tell everyone.

If you really are good they tell you."

;D

Robert