Starts and Dies 88 spider - Page 4

sportsmasterson · #46 (**permalink**) 05-01-2009, 09:03 PM

I had the same problem you describe. start great & run for about three secs. sometimes my drive relay was making noise. I tapped it with a screwdriver & it stopped making the noise & the car runs great now. I ordered a new one just in case this one stops working.

Robusie · #47 (**permalink**) 06-15-2009, 10:49 AM

Help - I have an 87 Spider Veloce that runs three seconds and dies. I have studied this thread and anything else that I could find, including Eric's guide to the Jetronic System.

As the weather warmed up, I have been driving her 2-3 times a week. This time, I got to about the end of my driveway, then stalled. She had a fast idle when cold. As I went through my analysis, I fixed some items that will likely help with that - if I can get her going again.

Here is a list of everything that I have tried:
Checked all air hoses. Fixed small crack near accordian section.
Removed and Tested Vaccum hoses for leaks, (except hose to Vapor Recovery, Pinched it off)
Checked Oil Separator and drain line
Checked and adjusted TPS
Cleaned ground wire terminals at engine and misc ground under rear platform
Measured resistance to ground at Injection ECU harness, (disconnected).
Checked flywheel sensors
Checked Thermal Sensor (Fuel ECU)
Checked AFM operation and connection
Checked Ignition Coil Resistance
Checked fuel pressure at CSI with Compression tester, about 32 PSI
Confirmed 12V to Injectors
Checked and adjusted AAV
Did not replace fuses 5 & 8 as flashers, radio and Pwr windows work.
Main relay clicks and appears to be OK
Drive Relay also clicks - but does not seem to control fuel pumps. Looks like PO bypassed relay and both fuel pumps are running with key in "on" position. There is an orange wire that passes through to underneath the car that has been spliced onto one of the drive relay wires.

It is clearly running for 3 seconds off the CSI. I believe that the main injectors are not activating. I do not have a Noid. I don't know what else to try.

I have disconnected the AFM for a test - no change.

Any other tests that I can do? I don't have access to another Alfa to try and swap out drive relay or ECU, so any tests that can help me determine what to order would be helpful.

I am stumped - can't think of what else to do. Could My ECU have just died before my eyes? (Well, actually behind me - closer to another part of my anatomy).

**ghnl** · #48 (**permalink**) 06-15-2009, 07:48 PM

It appears you have done a good job of testing for potential problems. I'm left wondering if the drive relay is defective or getting erratic inputs. It expects a 'tachymetric' signal via a sensing wire attached to the coil. Lacking that input, the drive relay switches off the fuel pump's power. Fuel pressure would quickly fall and the engine would die in about, oh, 3 seconds. (During cranking the drive relay gets a 'start' signal to provide fuel pump power until the engine is running.)

Info about the main & drive relays here: unlock the mysteries of main & drive relays

Next steps I'd suggest: 1) make sure the spark plugs are firing. Do you have a timing light? Connect it and note if the light flashes AS the engine dies - or immediately before it dies. If the latter the problem is in the ignition system. B) try to measure fuel pressure while the engine is running. (be careful playing with fuel under high pressure). You might have to add a tee fitting to the CSI's supply hose and adapt a pressure gauge there. If the fuel pressure falls and then the engine dies, focus your investigation on fuel supply. If fuel pressure is good, report back.

Post some pictures, too. That'll give us something to look at while we ponder...

**aggie06G-pa** · #49 (**permalink**) 06-16-2009, 09:56 AM

Robusi---My G-son and I have tried everything you have mentioned and also those of ghnl. What we have found is that the AFM has incorrect voltage applied to its potentiometer unit!! To check for this, remove the top to your AFM control and move air flapper to about the #6 position or higher while the spider is running (in the 3 sec time frame). This gives more fuel to the injectors. If the spider runs, you may have exactly the same problem we have. My Alfa mechanic feels that the ECU has problems, but he has never seen one fail before. My G-son lives in Houston and is very busy at work where he is an off shore engineer in the oil field business. I live in NM and have parts to take to him as soon as his work allows. However, we are very grateful to ghnl and the others that have gotten him to this stage now. We intend to try a different ECU ( I have two spiders 83&84). Good luck and let us know how you come out.

**ghnl** · #50 (**permalink**) 06-16-2009, 07:43 PM

It is entirely possible the computer is sending out erroneous signals but I think it is more likely it is getting erroneous inputs. Manually holding the AFM's flap open is compensating for the input error problem by fooling the computer into signalling for more fuel.

Tee in the fuel pressure tester and let us know what the fuel pressure does during cranking, starting, running & dieing. The computer is controlling the fuel injectors by varying their 'on' time. It is dependent on a steady supply of fuel at the proper pressure. If too high they'll squirt too much, if too low they'll squirt too little (or not at all).

If the fuel pressure drops as the engine starts test for fuel flow. There could be a restriction to flow that allows adequate pressure when first started but not allow the system to maintain the pressure.

And post some photos. All these words is getting boring. We needs some photos to look at.

Robusie · #51 (**permalink**) 06-16-2009, 08:12 PM

I purchased a "tee", some misc clamps and hose to monkey up a semi legit pressure test. Don't think that I will have time to try it tonight. Will try to do the timing light as that is pretty quick.

I hate to say it, but I don't have any pics of this car to post. I have one of my last projects here, just to keep from getting too boring. A little different class but nice anyway.

Robusie · #52 (**permalink**) 06-17-2009, 06:08 PM

Timing light shows normal ignition firing, from start through slower flashes as it dies.
Curiouser and Curiouser - I "T'd" my compression tester in at the inlet side of the fuel rail. It would not show any pressure throughout the cycle. Granted, its not really the guage for this but it seemed to show about 30 PSI when held static to the CSI line, (no clamps), Key on - engine off. Also, there was fuel spray, (pressure) at the rail when I removed the "T".

Is the CSI on a different fuel line or is my testing out of whack?

**Tifosi** · #53 (**permalink**) 06-17-2009, 06:11 PM

Testing is whacked.
CSI and rail are serviced by the same hose coming off the pump.

Robusie · #54 (**permalink**) 06-17-2009, 06:23 PM

Update - I had to test my test setup. I took a pair of pliers and pinched off the fuel return hose under the pressure regulator at the end of the rail. The pressure shot up and it ran for 15 more seconds.

Sounds like the regulator stuck in the open position. The nut that holds it on is so stuck that I may have to pull the rail to get it loose. Meanwhile, I guess that I will go looking for a new regulator.

**Tifosi** · #55 (**permalink**) 06-17-2009, 07:22 PM

Likely you're gonna end up grabbing the body of the regulator w/vice grips to hold it firm enough to break the nut loose.

The rail to regulator pipe isn't so bad even if really tight onnaconna there's stuff to get hold of, but the little sheetmetal bracket underneath the regulator with the even bigger nut is seemingly designed to destroy the bracket/rail during dissassembly unless you get a firm hold on things.

**ghnl** · #56 (**permalink**) 06-17-2009, 07:32 PM

See, photos help! Imagine if you had posted photos of your Alfa or maybe even a pretty girl...

I've seen fuel rail with regulator on eBay. Then you get to replace the FI hoses, too.

**ghnl** · #57 (**permalink**) 06-17-2009, 08:30 PM

Here's a fuel rail with regulator & fuel injectors on eBay: Buy it Now $75

**Tifosi** · #58 (**permalink**) 06-17-2009, 08:34 PM

Side note @ Robusie:
See the hose between 3rd and 4th injector? That's the CSI feed.

Robusie · #59 (**permalink**) 06-21-2009, 11:41 AM

Thanks everyone. I ordered the Injector rail with the Pressure regulator. Now I will need to look up what kind of seals I need and get ordered also.

I will post again after everything comes in to let you know how I made out.

Elio Comello · #60 (**permalink**) 06-21-2009, 07:45 PM

You should get new lower seals and upper seals for each injector, better still get the injectors solvent/ultrasonically cleaned for $16 each......that includes new seals (the pintle cap and the inlet screen is also changed and in the price.

When you install the new rail, change the guel lines also. the ones on the used one are likely hard and close to cracked.

TTFN Elio