Another 3-wire wiper question - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

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post #1 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-05-2017, 03:02 PM Thread Starter
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Another 3-wire wiper question

OK, no story this time.

Can anyone provide a good source for the original style Bosch 3-wire wiper motors? Looks like Bosch part # is 0 0390 326 002. Alfa part # is 105 02 65 052 04.

Even if you don't know where I can get the Bosch unit, if you have a source that you know will work with my S1, please let me know. There are several out there supposedly for S1 and some are 4 wire.

Thanks,

Scott

Alfa-current: '66 Duetto,
Past: '74 Spider, '76 spider, '80 GTV 6
Other-Current: 4 BMWs, Highlander Hybrid, Ram 1500
Other-past: 11 BMWs, 2 MGs, 1 Triumph, lots of other stuff that doesn't count.
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post #2 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-05-2017, 03:22 PM
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Classic Alfa sells what they describe as "Wiper motor with 3 wire connection to suit Coupes, Roundtail Spiders and Saloons up to the early 1970s" as their p/n EL018-1. But of course, the photo on their website doesn't show the angle I discuss below. See: http://classicalfa.com/products/EL01...NNECTION-.html



Be aware that the wiper motors used on the early 105's are mechanically different from the ones on later spiders. Don't know if the difference is "bird flapping wings" -style arm motion versus parallel arm motion. But the armatures the motors on my Sprint GT and Duetto are at a non-90 degree angle relative to the output shafts (see photo below), while the later motors have those two axes 90 degrees apart.
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Jay Mackro
San Juan Capistrano, CA

'63 Guilia spider
'65 Guilia Sprint GT
'67 Duetto
'91 164L

Last edited by Alfajay; 05-05-2017 at 04:31 PM.
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post #3 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-05-2017, 04:44 PM Thread Starter
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Yes, I saw that one. The angled gearing in that picture looks very close to the pieces that I have from the Bosch unit, which I am attaching. (That unit is not complete so it is not rebuildable). I'm hoping somebody will tell me that they have installed the Classic Alfa EL01 unit successfully. My concern is that there is no indication of where this unit came from (i.e. Chine, etc.) or how durable it is. There are a few Chinese pieces on my car (i.e. turn signal/headlights stalk) that I will be replacing as soon as I can because they do not feel right and/or don't function properly. That is why I am looking for the Bosch unit.

I've also noticed that the picture of several 3-wire motors on-line show a unit that is a mirror image of the unit I have. (i.e. motor id on left side of shaft instead of right as shown below.) IT might just be an incorrect image but I'm not going to take that chance.

BTW, the wipers on my S1 are the bird-wing style, but that is a function of the linkages. I've had a couple of other cars with that style of wiper. They are more complex than the parallel linkages and they do not provide as much clear/dry window for the driver. Parallel wipers provide better visibility and usually wipe a small area in front of the driver twice for each cycle.

Some MG Midgets have 3 parallel wipers. Dumb set up but good visibility if you are unfortunate enough to have to drive one in the rain. You'll get wet, but you can see.

On a different note, the gaps on either side of the wiper sill on my car are a little wide, so I'll be looking for a replacement sill/valance prior to a respray. All I can find so far are the S2 and above sills which have the wiper posts in a different place for parallel wipers. That's a different rabbit hole.

I'll probably try the Classic Alfa motor since I can't seem to find anything else. With luck, this car will never see rain again, so I'm going to hold out for a Bosch or similar unit for a little while longer. That sounds really crazy, doesn't it? Search for a better motor even though I hope never to use it. All part of the quest to have a trouble free car on the too-few times we actually drive them.

Thanks,

Scott
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Alfa-current: '66 Duetto,
Past: '74 Spider, '76 spider, '80 GTV 6
Other-Current: 4 BMWs, Highlander Hybrid, Ram 1500
Other-past: 11 BMWs, 2 MGs, 1 Triumph, lots of other stuff that doesn't count.
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post #4 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-05-2017, 05:03 PM
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Scott, I`ve put one of the Classic Alfa wiper motors on a `69 GT Junior without problems. My belief is these components are made in the EEC and appear to be of good quality as I stripped and compared. Classic Alfa do source from Europe and pride themselves, as do the other UK suppliers, in providing quality parts (often from the original supplier).

Richard J
'65 Giulia Ti, '69 GT Junior, '74 2000 GTV, '76 Alfetta GTV, '77 Alfetta GTV.`00 156
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post #5 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-06-2017, 05:51 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alfavirusnz View Post
Scott, I`ve put one of the Classic Alfa wiper motors on a `69 GT Junior without problems. My belief is these components are made in the EEC and appear to be of good quality as I stripped and compared. Classic Alfa do source from Europe and pride themselves, as do the other UK suppliers, in providing quality parts (often from the original supplier).
This is good to know. I just went ahead and ordered a wiper motor from them based on your response and because the unit looks correct.

Thanks,

Scott

Alfa-current: '66 Duetto,
Past: '74 Spider, '76 spider, '80 GTV 6
Other-Current: 4 BMWs, Highlander Hybrid, Ram 1500
Other-past: 11 BMWs, 2 MGs, 1 Triumph, lots of other stuff that doesn't count.
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post #6 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-06-2017, 07:06 AM
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[QUOTE=Hodgepodge;7604954]This is good to know. I just went ahead and ordered a wiper motor from them based on your response and because the unit looks correct.

Please let us know how this works out. Many of us are in the same situation. Having done a bit of research on those new 3-wire motors, I had the impression that they were made in Italy.
Good luck, James

1970 GTV (owned since 1987)
1985 GTV2.5
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post #7 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-06-2017, 10:31 AM Thread Starter
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Oh, you can be sure I will post a complete review and maybe a how-to.

Thanks,

Scott

Alfa-current: '66 Duetto,
Past: '74 Spider, '76 spider, '80 GTV 6
Other-Current: 4 BMWs, Highlander Hybrid, Ram 1500
Other-past: 11 BMWs, 2 MGs, 1 Triumph, lots of other stuff that doesn't count.
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post #8 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-12-2017, 10:03 AM Thread Starter
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OK, The wiper motor from Classic Alfa arrived from Great Britain on Wednesday, which was very fast. I have not attempted to install it in my Duetto yet, but I'm attaching a comparison image of the new to my old one. As Alfajay points out, the older motors have a different angle that this new Classic Alfa motor does not have. It also has a connector that I'm about 99.9% sure does not apply to my car. (as soon as I mess with that connector, I forever own the motor...) On the other hand, the new armature is smaller in both length and diameter than the old one, so that might be enough for the unit to fit where it should without interfering with the wiper mechanism or bulkhead.

I'll try to install it over the weekend and let you know how it turns out.

Thanks,

Scott
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Alfa-current: '66 Duetto,
Past: '74 Spider, '76 spider, '80 GTV 6
Other-Current: 4 BMWs, Highlander Hybrid, Ram 1500
Other-past: 11 BMWs, 2 MGs, 1 Triumph, lots of other stuff that doesn't count.

Last edited by Hodgepodge; 05-12-2017 at 10:06 AM.
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post #9 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-12-2017, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hodgepodge View Post
the older motors have a different angle that this new Classic Alfa motor does not have. the new armature is smaller in both length and diameter than the old one, so that might be enough for the unit to fit
Nuts, I'm disappointed to learn that the CA motor is different from your original motor - e.g., that the motor is at the wrong angle to the wiper shafts. But if the motor's overall diameter is smaller, it still might fit. Please report back.

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It also has a connector that I'm about 99.9% sure does not apply to my car (as soon as I mess with that connector, I forever own the motor...)
Obviously you shouldn't mess with the connector until you have established that the motor will fit. It looks like your early motor didn't have a white nylon connector; just three, loose wires with lugs. The lugs inside the connector are held in place with tangs (see photo below); you can bend back the tangs with a stiff wire and pull the lugs out of the white nylon frame. So you shouldn't need to cut off and re-crimp anything.


Jay Mackro
San Juan Capistrano, CA

'63 Guilia spider
'65 Guilia Sprint GT
'67 Duetto
'91 164L

Last edited by Alfajay; 05-12-2017 at 10:45 AM.
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post #10 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-13-2017, 07:09 PM Thread Starter
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OK, well...bad news on this wiper motor so far. I installed it in my Duetto and it appeared to install without any clearance issues in the compartment. Unfortunately, I did encounter clearance issues in two places. Note that this car has butterfly or bird-wing syle wipers. So instead of a flat bar with a single joint driving back and forth wipers, this arrangement uses a C shaped bar with two joints, one driving each wiper. Hard to explain, easier to show.

If you look at my comparison photo above, you'll notice how much longer the shaft is in the new motor than it was in the old one. It's about 1/2 inch longer. Because the crank is a C-style crank, the driver side arm orbits immediatly above the motor shaft. This longer shaft interfered with the orbit of this arm.

Also, Alfajay and others mentioned the lack of motor offset angle on this wiper motor. Alfajay and I both show pictures above of this offset. Although this motor installed fine, it turns out the offset angle provided room for an adjustment bolt on the driver's side wiper to move back and forth past the motor. Without that offset, the motor housing interferes with that bolt. Now, I may be able to replace that bolt with a flat bolt or a press-in stud, but even then clearance for the mechanism to move past the motor will be tight.

Unfortunately, I did not see these mechanical clearance issues when I installed the motor and the motor has too much torque for me to be able to turn it by hand. So I loosely hooked up the linkage and turned it on for one revolution. That was enough to damage the wiper mechanism and slightly strip the knurled connection point on the wiper motor. I've probably rebuilt a dozen wiper systems and I have never seen anything quite as Rube Goldberg as this.

I'm attaching two pictures so you can see what I am talking about. I'm also going to keep working on this since I really want it to work and am not sure if Classic Alfa will take their motor back. The motor was out of the car when I bought it. Maybe there is a way to tweak things so they will work. Won't know until I try.

Thanks,

Scott
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Alfa-current: '66 Duetto,
Past: '74 Spider, '76 spider, '80 GTV 6
Other-Current: 4 BMWs, Highlander Hybrid, Ram 1500
Other-past: 11 BMWs, 2 MGs, 1 Triumph, lots of other stuff that doesn't count.
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post #11 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-13-2017, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hodgepodge View Post
you'll notice how much longer the shaft is in the new motor than it was in the old one. It's about 1/2 inch longer.
Darn! I was hoping that replacement WW motors were available for the early 105's. Looks like "no".

Good luck on getting that C.A. motor to work. But even if you succeed, I don't think I'll be ordering one if mine gives out. However, I don't have a "plan B" either.

Jay Mackro
San Juan Capistrano, CA

'63 Guilia spider
'65 Guilia Sprint GT
'67 Duetto
'91 164L
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post #12 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-14-2017, 06:46 AM
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Hi Scott. Thanks for the very valuable update. Just a question and not to influence you on your decision to return the motor, can the shaft be shortened or ground down? Is there any indication of the country of origin? Cheers, James

1970 GTV (owned since 1987)
1985 GTV2.5
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post #13 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-14-2017, 07:25 AM Thread Starter
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James2000,

Yes, I pulled the motor and am considering options. The motor portion is different than my original one so I can't just swap transmissions. One option on the is to cut the excess on the top of the shaft off, but the diameter of the threaded portion is larger, so I may need to find a flat nut in this diameter.

As for the motor clearance, I think I can either tap a thread into the wiper adjustment nut, or press a stud into it. I also want to look at this mechanism on other cars to see what it looks like. This linkage in my car is brand new, but I damaged one of the ball joints when the motor jammed. Worst, worst, worst case, and I really don't like this idea, is to by an early S2 valance and wiper mechanism and re-position the wipers to the parallel style. Yes, that's a really dumb idea, but my valance isn't in very good shape, so this would kill two birds....

.....or, since I never plan to drive this car in the rain, I could just go without wipers! ...but then I would know.....

I'll let you know if there is another chapter here. Maybe the guys at Classic Alfa will have some ideas. I'm thinking they didn't know that this would not work and might work with me on a solution.

Thanks,

Scott

Alfa-current: '66 Duetto,
Past: '74 Spider, '76 spider, '80 GTV 6
Other-Current: 4 BMWs, Highlander Hybrid, Ram 1500
Other-past: 11 BMWs, 2 MGs, 1 Triumph, lots of other stuff that doesn't count.

Last edited by Hodgepodge; 05-14-2017 at 08:35 AM.
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post #14 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-14-2017, 08:32 AM Thread Starter
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Oh, there is no country of origin. It looks a lot like the newer Bosch motors and is well built, but there are no numbers that, as far as I know, are on every Bosch part. The letters KK (with a registration mark) are in the transmission casting. The only registered mark I can find under KK is Kim Kardashian.....

My old motor was definitely a Bosch unit and is stamped Bosch, DHA 12, Made in Germany and 0 390 326 003. (Alfa manual says 002, so the last 3 digits must be version number, up to 006 as far as I can tell.) I've turned over every rock I can find to locate one of these Bosch units including sending emails directly to Bosch (no response yet). If I find a channel for them, I'll let you know.

Thanks,

Scott

Alfa-current: '66 Duetto,
Past: '74 Spider, '76 spider, '80 GTV 6
Other-Current: 4 BMWs, Highlander Hybrid, Ram 1500
Other-past: 11 BMWs, 2 MGs, 1 Triumph, lots of other stuff that doesn't count.
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post #15 of 35 (permalink) Old 05-14-2017, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hodgepodge View Post
Worst, worst, worst case, and I really don't like this idea, is to by an early S2 valance and wiper mechanism and re-position the wipers to the parallel style.
I have never tried that conversion, but would guess that it isn't a "bolt-on". For example, the sheetmetal below the wiper motor may not be shaped in a way that will accommodate a different motor size/angle. But hey, I'm just speculating - maybe it would work. Wouldn't look right, however.

Quote:
Maybe the guys at Classic Alfa will have some ideas. I'm thinking they didn't know that this would not work and might work with me on a solution.
It is a little disappointing that they claim this is a motor "to suit Coupes, Roundtail Spiders and Saloons up to the early 1970s", when it really isn't. So yes, they should be informed that it just doesn't fit.

Alfaholics might be another resource, since they restore cars as well as sell parts. When they build 6-figure, GTA clones, they probably have to overhaul the wiper systems; wonder what they use for motors?

Jay Mackro
San Juan Capistrano, CA

'63 Guilia spider
'65 Guilia Sprint GT
'67 Duetto
'91 164L

Last edited by Alfajay; 05-14-2017 at 08:49 AM.
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