Head gasket again

[Richard2]

180OUT...Yes I know it's got to be water vapor. The leakage isn't from an over pressured radiator since I had the cap off.

This is the 2nd head gasket trying to fix it, so I'm quite sure it's not the head gasket. The only other thing I can think of is a cracked head. Is #3 cylinder a favorite place for then to crack?

Thanks for the Aluma Seal suggestion. I actually bought a can of Permatex sealer to try, but decided to do the head gasket again first.

Giorigo68: I think LEMON Yellow would be more appropriate!!

[rogerspeed]

I second the AlumaSeal from experience. If new head gasket, cleaned radiator and flushed block this product does work as advertised without ill side effects.

[alfettagtv2000]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rogerspeed I second the AlumaSeal from experience. If new head gasket, cleaned radiator and flushed block this product does work as advertised without ill side effects.

[Gordon Raymond]

Hi Richard,
Sorry for your troubles. I doubt you could have problems twice with head gaskets. If there is no excessive pressure in the cooling system, bubbles, exhaust fumes, then combustion pressure is not leaking into the coolant. Thats good. Are you using anti freeze, or plain water at this point? Antifreeze lowers the surface tension of water, making it, well, more watery. Also more likely to leak into areas where it should not be. See if plain water still shows steam from the exhaust when everything is hot. It is also possible, though I have only seen it once, to have a leak from the passages in the intake manifold route water to an intake port in the head. (The one I saw WAS #3). This will not over pressurize the cooling system and is noticible by loss of water, and in the mentioned case, much more steam from the exhaust under acceleration, and again on sudden throttle closeure. Interesting, but uncommon. Finally your question of a cracked head. If the crack is in the intake port bowl area, there is seldom over preassurization bubbles, or exhaust in the coolant. However, the plug and combustion chamber may be water damp, if viewed through the plug hole after things have cooled down. Did you have any head work done before reassembly? What was the reason for the head removal? Were there any signs of aluminum erosion of the combustion chamber or piston of #3 (or any cylinder) on disassembly? Antifreeze solution leaking into a running cylinder will show itself on disassembly as pitting or erosion on the aluminum combustion chamber and piston crown. Just some thoughts that might help in a diagnosis. Have you tried to pressurize #3 with a leak down tester to see if you can force air into the coolant with the non running, cold engine? These various tests will tell you WHERE the leak is before you bother to tear it down again. Looking forward to your next post. Gordon Raymond

[180OUT]

[quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard2 180OUT...Yes I know it's got to be water vapor. The leakage isn't from an over pressured radiator since I had the cap off.

[Gordon Raymond]

A little note to Jim, You are right about mouse milk, and I DID fail to mention same. My '65 GTA engine has a sand cast head. These can be a leaky mess. I have used "Bars Leak" and distilled water in the engine for 40+ years with NO LEAKS!
Gordon Raymond

[Alfar7]

With the race engine builders around here and there are a lot of Circle track racers, it is standard practice to put Aluma-Seal into the finished motor before it is tested. Once in the cavities it is there. Draining the cooling system generally does not cause a restart of a leak. With Bars Leak there may be reduction in radiator efficiency, but draining and cleaning the radiator only with a caustic cleaner should restore it, and again not affect the leak plug in the motor.

[180OUT]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordon Raymond A little note to Jim, You are right about mouse milk, and I DID fail to mention same. My '65 GTA engine has a sand cast head. These can be a leaky mess. I have used "Bars Leak" and distilled water in the engine for 40+ years with NO LEAKS! Gordon Raymond

[alfettagtv2000]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 180OUT Hey, Gordon: Well, for those of us familiar with the term, "mouse milk" ...

[Richard2]

Well, I'm back working 12 hr days for 7 in a row again before a couple of days off. It will slow things down considerably.

Gordon...
There's no sign of gas bubbles in the coolant with the radiator cap off.
I put in anti freeze, so it may leak a little more than with water. If I use a sealant, it may be better with antifreeze.
The reason for the head removal in the first place was water vapor out the exhaust. I had the valves done, seals and valve gap set. I talked to the shop about checking for cracks and was told they didn't find any. How do you check an aluminium head for cracks? Dye Penetrant?
As for pitting in the combustion chamber, I wouldn't call it pitting, but a slightly rougher surface than the others. You really have to look for it to notice it.

[180OUT]

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfettagtv2000 ...thanks guys for the information on 'Aluma-Seal'...can you explain the definition of the term 'mouse milk' as i have not heard of this expression in my part of the world. thanks...

[zagato^1600]

I hope my english is good enough that everyone will understand what i mean-
retorqe the head- when you do it after 500 miles- dont forget to drain the coolant, as when you open the nut 1 turn, collant will come out and these would alter the torqe force- also do not forget to oil after opening the nut.

to see if the steam is coming from coolant or only condes-water from the exhaustsystem, just after starting the engine smell the vapor- if it is fcoming rom coolant it smells a little sweet - when you use a coolant on base of mono-athylen-glycol.

to test the head i took an old heard gasket and inlet gasket to an machine shop and had laser cut me an aluminium plate (12mm for the head gascet, 6 mm for the inlet) (only the holes for the studs and the liners and inlet canelsund studs). I have made me an adapter to put pressure air in the watersystem of the closed head (about 5-7 bar), then I put the head in about 70-80 degree warm water and wait about 15 minites, are there any bubbles coming-
I have forgotten- between the alu-plates i cut rubber seals from an old tube tire (best from truck) to seal the whole thing.

so best regards from austria
zagato^1600

[alfettagtv2000]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 180OUT ... it refers to a whole variety of automotive additives (some useful, others completely useless), all of which promise some sort of miracle fix for a car's mechanical problems. ...the term originated in the early American hot rod culture.

[Gordon Raymond]

Dye penetrant, Zyglo, is the easiest way to check for cracks or porosity. The slight roughness in # 3 is the begining of the pitting I mentioned. Yes, you do have a leak, no it is not from the gasket. Zagato ^ 1600's discussion is excellent, both for the anti freeze, characteristic sweet smell, and the plate used for pressure testing. Some (not all) shops that specialize in Alfa head reconstruction, will have a preesure testing set up. This involves some time and labor, and is not inexpensive. If the head is common, I usually would recommend starting with another donor head. On the other hand, if the head either has had work and $ invested, or is unusual, rare or the owner just likes it, there are many options for permenant repair. From all your detailed analysis, it does appear you have a leak in the intake track of #3. Most likely the port or bowl area of the port. It can be a crack near the seat area or extending from or to the guide area. Neither of these are good. It is possible for the seat to come loose, or the guide to shift, either usually results in engine distruction. OR, it may just be porosity in the port area, from a casting flaw. These just ooze forever with no potential for mechanical damage other than eroded combustion chamber and/or piston crown. Sometimes the mouse milk cure is a workable solution, either temporary or permenant! Members can advise of Alfa shops that sucessfully and correctly repair damged heads by welding and remachining the reworked area. This is the proper, permenant fix. Not inexpensive. Another donor head is a good solution, IF it is leak free. However, another head rebuild is required. Keep us informed! Gordon Raymond

[Andrew]

Norman Racing in Berkeley can probably handle the welding/machining if the head is salvageable.

Good automotive machine shops have ways to block off all the water passage areas to pressure test the head's cooling passages. Norman can't really do that, but I imagine you can find somebody in LA who can.

Andrew