[Zaagmans]

And I disagree as well..

There were indeed 252 1750A's produced... the serial number range is also known... and that is not "Fusi knowledge".

There were a total of 2.220 2000A's produced, spread over 3 versions:

LHD: 1076
RHD: 564
RHD CKD: 580

So, the 2000A is not as rare as you might think, eventhough very few might have survived.

It's interesting to see that more 2000A's were produced in RHD than in LHD.

According to my sources, most of the 252 1750A's were sold to the USA.

There even are a couple of 2000A's here in Holland but we simply don't like the styling "updates" on the 2000 over the 1750.

A 116 or Sei are too far off the 105 concept to be considered. Took a look at a Sei 2500 Automatico that is for sale here locally but... no... simply too far off.

 

[OliverTwist]

I am curious about where the exact figure of 252 units comes from. Do you have the documentary evidence or reference that we can look into it?

I am very well aware of 2000A in larger number and how much of them have survived to this day. Perhaps it's due to the fact that 2000A was more refined than 1750A, especially with the automatic gearboxes.

I remembered lot of problems driving my 1750A due to badly spaced gears and due to the difficulties in finding the 'sweet spot' between the throttle linkage and gearbox. I spent two years moving the cable incrementally forward and backward on the throttle linkage under the carburettors. Sometimes, the motor and gearbox cooperated beautifully. Sometimes, they became the mortal enemy. One wrong position: higher fuel consumption, slow performance, delayed kickdown, and so forth. I had the gearbox serviced several times, but they didn't seem to help at all. There was times when I wanted to get rid of it and buy something more reliable and stable.

I guess people who bought 1750A experienced the baulky performance and gave them up without any thought about their rarity.

 

[Zaagmans]

Oliver,

my response was more a repsonse to Giovanni's than to your post...

The number of 252 comes straight from the AR archives.

I'm not sure if we should see the 1750A as a mule for the 2000A as with the number of 252, it has a place in the production records.

The fact that there are very few, if any, 1750A's left, doesn't automatically D) mean that the number of 252 is incorrect.

I always rather go with what is known than with "could be that".

Even in the 2000A, the gearbox is not exactly renowned for its smoothness but with current technology it's possible to convert it to 4 gears instead of 3 and, if I should believe what's being said, that makes a hell of a difference.

 

[OliverTwist]

Ah, ok, sorry for the confusion about which was directed to.

Yes, I drove the 1750 with 5-speed manual gearbox and saw the huge difference in performance.

That is very interesting to know about the figure of 252 units. The owner of Alfa Romeo repair garage had long suspected that they were just the experimental run as to gather the real world experience. I also surmised that Alfa Romeo had to have an automatic gearbox for American market and couldn't get it to work in time of 1750 introduction in 1967. Who knows?

Another example of test run: Mercedes-Benz offered 450SLC 5.0 (the aluminium V8) in 1977 prior to the 1979 introduction of new W126 S-Class and new generation of aluminium 3,8 and 5,0 litre V8 motors.

 

[Zaagmans]

I think that DIPRE ESPE (the development department) simply got the order to produce an Automatic version of the Berlina on the then-current version, the 1750 second series (hanging pedals) with a small production run as result and when the 2000 was introduced, production continued on that car without too much modifications (I believe only the center console).

It would require some more research though but I'll maintain that a production of 252 is simply to big to qualify it as a mule.

P.S.
I boldly refuse to acquire any knowledge on Mercedes... :-D

 

[giamba_ps]

Hello Zaagmans ;
to my knowledge your 2000 a figures are quite high also you do not mention where you found these numbers. Also i am sorry but i do not understand the last run you quote that states rhd 580 ckd ? what is ckd ?

I can tell you that the letter that we have for the origin of our 1973 2000a from the alfa romeo archives written by miss Ruocco quotes that it was produced in 252 examples , official alfa figures from alfa archive not mine.

i am currently in america and the car is in italy , but i will see if my friend can scan me the document so you can see it.
we cannot know where but there is definitely a confusion in the production numbers on these two cars.

You mention that most of the 252 1750a were according to your sources sold in the usa , could you tell us what your sources are ? because i have yet to come across someone besiedes oliver (and his came from germany) who has known of a 1750 a in the us, not that there may have not been some , i'm sure there probalby was a few but a large amount of these say 100 o r more would have left some traces of pictures and common knowledge of the car in the us alfa romeo field...mechanics , and conoseurs the like . i suspect there were very few 1750 a built . also since you seem so FAMILIAR with the model , do you have any other Photos or similar literature that you could share with us (?) in this quite unique post in order to further enrich the already excellent vintage pictures that oliver has been so kind to share with the alfa community.
I am sure Oliver Myslef and many other "aficionados" would love to see more information on this car and MORE PHOTOS. Have you seen one of thse in real life?

Oliver thanks for having looked with your father for the pictures , maybe in time your brother may find his and give us another surprise !!!!
Let us know what you think on this debate wether the 2000 a was really a bigger production run and the 1750 a was the 252 units alfa quotes . interesting alfa arhcaeology ..... best regards to you both
giovanni

 

[Zaagmans]

The number of 252 comes straight from the AR archives.

So do the numbers on the 2000A and most of the other information which can be assumed to be facts, and all that info is as recent as a couple of months ago.

I already posted literature from my own collection earlier in this topic.

The fact that few, if any, survive does not prove any production numbers to be wrong.

We also shouldn't forget that the archives have become much more organized over the last years and that information is more readily available. Dr. Marco Fazio is doing a splendid job in that respect, always answering any queries very quickly and accurately.

The main causes for the low survival rate of the 1750A could very well be the fact that they were dreadful cars to drive and the poor rust prevention which may have sent most of them straight to the crusher after a few years.

I think Andrew will agree with that the survival rate as a % of the total production is very low to begin with. Would 5000 Berlina 1750's survive out of the original roughly 100.000? Probably not.. the number is probably closer to 2500 which makes for a mere 2.5%.

Cut that % in half for being a poorly driving car and you get a hypothetical surviving number of 3 1750A's... All we have to do is locate them... they probably are somewhere out there...

The 252 produced cars were dispersed over at least two countries one of which one is truely enormous (USA), possibly more, and the chance that in 2012, 40 years after production, we might find anybody who actually owned one is rather slim at best and most cars will have vanished into oblivion long before we became aware of their existence....

With Oliver's car being the 36th of the series, I think we can also very safely establish that even at that point in time, the "mule status" was long passed.

Have I ever seen a 1750A in the flesh? No... but then again... it's midnight here now... and I don't see the sun... doesn't mean that the sun doesn't exist...

I appreciate both versions being rare but we shouldn't try to make them rarer than they actually are.

Anyhow, I put my money on the current factory data being correct.

P.S.
Not that I put too much trust in wikipedia... but here you will find almost exactly the same numer of cars:
Alfa Romeo 1750 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

P.P.S.
CKD means Completely Knocked Down, i.e. sold in parts to a country of destination with an official assembly plant to be assembled locally and thus avoid import tax or to avoid any bans on the import of complete cars.

The main destination for RHD CKD Alfa's was SA.

 

[Zaagmans]

Going a little deeper into the matter...

You say having seen about 5 2000A's for sale in Italy, you own 1 yourself, I know of 4 here in Holland (2 drivers and 2 stripped cars), 2 in the UK (1 driver, 1 stripped), 1 in Malaysia and if we start looking, we will most definitely find more of them, especially in Australia...

But, we have already "found" 13 of them which is more than 4 times (!) the expected survival rate if only 252 2000A would have been made... and that is without really starting a search for them...

Sticking to the number of 252 would mean that the 2000A has by FAR the highest survival rate of all Berlina's!

Realistic? No.....

Add to that the information that can be derived from this owners manual addendum that I posted earlier:

Print number 1866 / 2/72 - (2700)

It was printed in February 1972 in French, in a quantity of 2.700 pcs...

So, the 2000A was most definitely also sold in France, or at least in French speaking territory, and Alfa was expecting quite something, given the printed quantity... not exactly the quantity that you would print in an odd language if the total production would be 252 cars for the whole world....

To put that number into perspective: Alfa never bothered to make a French owners manual for the Junior Zagato yet they produced 1100-odd cars of that model... and here we are with 2700 (!) manuals in French alone for a total production of 252 cars????? No way....

The 2000A was also sold in Italy, Germany, the USA, Australia and Holland and probably more countries (given the RHD car in Malaysia but that could have come from Australia originally).

Add to that the following that papajam posted earlier:

According to d'Amico & Tabucchi, 253 model 105.73 1750 Berlina Automatic gearbox vehicles were produced (chassis 1780001-1780253 inclusive) in 1971, the only year of production.

That chassisnumber range is reserved for the 1750A... and matches that what the factory archive relayed (not strange as d'A & T base themselves on the factory facts). One could even argue that there were actually 253 1750A's instead of 252...

The 1750A has its own "Tipo" designation: 105.73.

Add to that the information from Andrew's register:

These are the two I have on the Register:
AR*1780036* 1971 1750 AR00548*98014* red black TX, USA 130,000 auto; from Germany; Markwith;
AR*1780117* 1971 1750 green blue tan Ingolf Koch Germany 170,000 auto; dell orto

Both cars fall within the reserved chassisnumber range for the 1750A... with # 36 being Oliver's car and the other one being # 117. 117 mules ???? No!

I think it's pretty clear...

The 1750A 105.73 is a rare beast with only 252 (or 253) produced and very few surviving, it had its own dedicated chassisnumber range and Tipo designation which makes them easy to identify, Andrew has two cars that fall within that chassisnumber range in his register, the factory confirms 252 cars produced.

There is no evidence or even hints at that the 1750A was a mule... it was a production car, the Tipo 105.73. At best, one could say that the 1750A was the forerunner of the 2000A (which indeed it was).

The 2000A was produced in a much larger number, almost 9 times as many as of the 1750A were produced and they were scattered around the globe to Europe, the USA, South Africa and Australia.

Again, the factory relayed a total of 2.220 produced for the 2000A and given the break down of that number one could come to the conclusion that:

the 1076 LHD cars were sold in Europe and the USA
the 564 RHD cars went to Autralia (and possibly the UK)
the 580 CKD RHD cars went to South Africa

The 2000A LHD is the Tipo 105.54, with the chassisnumbers ranging from 2480001 up to 2481078 (again a dedicated tipo designation and chassisnumber range!) and produced from 1972 - 1975 included.

The 2000A RHD was Tipo 105.97 with chassisnumber range 2490001 - 2490564 (again a dedicated chassisnumber range) for the 564 complete cars, all produced during 1974 and 3073041 - 3073320 produced during 1975 and 1976 for the RHD CKD cars.

I can understand that if you have believed for years to be owning 1 of only 252 cars produced and it now turns out to be 1 of 2220, that must be somewhat of a disappointment but I believe that Elvira Ruocco made an honest mistake when she relayed the production figure of the 1750A to you which was interpreted as being the production figure for the 2000A

I value Mrs. Ruocco highly and am still in contact with her and I know that in her days at the Centro Documentazione the job was a LOT harder because of the lack of computers but the current state of affairs is as explained above.

 

[papajam]

It was printed in February 1972 in French, in a quantity of 2.700 pcs...

To add, the English language version of the 2000A supplement, #1867, was published one month later than the French version, in March 1972. 5,100 pcs were produced.
This supplement was also published in Italian, #1865 in 2/72, German, #1868 in 2/72 and two issues in Spanish; #1869 in 3/72 and #1869 R1 in 3/73.
The source for this info is Alfa Publications List #2104.

 

[Zaagmans]

To add, the English language version of the 2000A supplement, #1867, was published one month later than the French version, in March 1972. 5,100 pcs were produced.
This supplement was also published in Italian, #1865 in 2/72, German, #1868 in 2/72 and two issues in Spanish; #1869 in 3/72 and #1869 R1 in 3/73.
The source for this info is Alfa Publications List #2104.

Impressive numbers!
And all that for 252 cars?

 

[Alfa Station]

I am not sure if I have mentioned this before, but there is at least one 2000A with low kilometers in Finland. When it was sold some years back it was sold as one of 2500 cars produced (if I can recall correct).

-AS

 

[giamba_ps]

i think it's obvious that when they publish a book or supllement they do not publish the excact number of copies that the car was produced in ...right? How many gta boolets did the publish? i am sure that not just 500 were printed right ?? ? i see them floating around at swap meets in italy all the time ........ further more italian burocracy is capable of many white elefant performances , do not forget that alfa was state owned at the time....as far as we know they might have thought that the automatic sedans were going to be an all out success ........

anyhow, Zagmaans as for your theory and information it's interesting ,and if so THERE IS A CONFUSION IN THE ALFA ARCHIVES ( as there has often been ...) AND THE INFORMATION THAT HAS BEEN DIVULGED BY ALFA IN IT'S COMMUNICATIONS TO IT'S CAR OWNERS AND TO DIFFERENT LITEARATURE THAT HAS BEEN PUBLIHED IN THE YEARS IS NOT CORRECT
. I have asked my friend to send me a copy of the letter that alfa sent us regarding the 2000a , i will post it just to provide accurate knowledge and proof of the document and what it states. I am not very interested in memorizing chassis serial numbers of different cars etc....hence i can take the nunbers and info you post for good, but you must admit that there is a misinetepretation at some point confusing of these two rare and forgotten models. Still to be honest i think that 2000 and odd cars of the 2000a a bit too many cars , that's more than the soprts sedan production of the alfettas for the states and there still are a bunch of those around automatic and non and 95 percent of those all became vivtims of terminal rust as you well know... , anyhow it's interesting to see if things can be confirmed by documents and precise investigation.

Further more I am by no means "disappointed " about a higher production number of the 2000a , it is not a car that has a added value for it's rarity as a Gta or tz or such , rather these obejcts are more of a cult - fetish item for the aficionado alfista as you or I are. hence the fact that there may have been more or less produced is of no relevance. In regard to the 1750 a though , we have yet to discover one in existance, and that makes thing a bit different . let's hope that some arise , maybe germany ?maybe somewhere else... ?

 

[Zaagmans]

I am not sure if I have mentioned this before, but there is at least one 2000A with low kilometers in Finland. When it was sold some years back it was sold as one of 2500 cars produced (if I can recall correct).

-AS

Moi AS!
Any chance that you could still track this car down?

 

[Alfa Station]

Moi AS!
Any chance that you could still track this car down?

Moi,

It is with an older patriotic collector.

-AS

 

[Aggie57]

1975 ALFA ROMEO 2000 BERLINA Sedan Private Cars For Sale in VIC - carsales.com.au

How many automatic GTV's were produced?

1975 ALFA ROMEO 2000 GT VELOCE Coupe Cars For Sale in ACT - carsales.com.au

 

[Zaagmans]

Never heard of an Automatic GTV before...

 

[giamba_ps]

yes the 2000gtv automatic for australia only as far as i konw .
another white fly....
zaagmans , try to locate mr dugatto gianni he has a site with a phone number he is in northen italy and he has had several 2000a in his hands . 3 that i have known of he had 2 for sale lat year , all very very nice i think he sold one, he may still have the other , in his site is his telephone number. this should be it 39 338 475 0936 and his e mail is info@autostorichedugattogianni.it give him a try .
cheer giovanni .

 

[Gasolina]

I am not sure if I have mentioned this before, but there is at least one 2000A with low kilometers in Finland. When it was sold some years back it was sold as one of 2500 cars produced (if I can recall correct).

-AS

Here's the car. My friend owned it about 10 years ago and friendly gave me some pics from that time.

 

[Zaagmans]

Nice one!

Would you happen to know the VIN?

 

[giamba_ps]

nice 2000a !!!!