Bakelite Spark Plug Connectors - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

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Old 01-09-2012, 09:37 AM
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Bakelite Spark Plug Connectors

Gents, don't know where to post this (Resto, Elec, 750/101, etc.) but it's on/for a 65 Super so I'll start here.

My car came with what looks like possibly an original spark plug wire set, at least old. They are black wire with brown Bakelite plug connectors. See photos below. The #4 is "bent" as it sits under the air crossover duct. Before a recent long trip I had a catastrophic ignition problem and temporarily replaced them with a new 5mm Cavis green set with rubber connectors. Now wondering what to do with the originals.

I'd like the expertise of the board to peruse a few questions:

1. Were these indeed original style - black w/ Bakelite?

2. Did green Cavis wires come on early (ca 65) Supers? in 5 or 7mm?? I read that 5mm were on 101's and 65 105's share some in common but later 105's took 7mm.

3. Did any Cavis green wires come with the Bakelite end connectors ? (I ask this as from the ABB pic attached below, not of mine, where it looks like original Bakelite connectors were cobbled onto Cavis green wires)

4. Will I damage anything if I pry up the rubber end from the Bakelite piece? Is it a plug-in? I am considering putting the Cavis green wires onto the Bakelite connectors

Thanks for your input on any or all of these queries!! Bruce
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Now
- Spider Veloce, '69 US1750/4.56 LSD (pictures)(and more) - since '75 for that early mid-life crisis!
- Pinyo - '72 Super, 2L/4.30LSD (pictures)(and more) - for that late mid-life crisis!!
- Gina Lolo Bianca - '65 early Series 1 Super, white/lt.blue-gray, stock 1600/4.56 (pics)(more pics) (Blog) - for the heck of it now!!!
- Mr Meconium- '73 Giulia Super 1.6, Giallo Piper/black, very stock (pics) - for another Euro trip?
Gone-
- El Blanco - '75 Super, ex-Nuova to earlier Super style, 2L/4.30LSD, white/gray-black - pics - SOLD
- Colonel Mustard - '67 Giulia Sprint GTV, Giallo Ocra/black, very stock, 1600 (pics) - LINK
- '70 1300 TI, 2L/4.10LSD, white/black - for a short while only . . .
- Benjamin - '76 ex-Nuova to 1600 Super (pics) - for the 2011 Euro trip
- '69 1750 Berlina (wish I still had)
Links
Pinyo's 2010, 10 wk, 8000 mi "Super" Euro-Trip Blog - LINK
Benjamin's 2011, 7 week, 3500 mile "Super2" Euro-Trip Blog - LINK
Gina Lolo's 2011 Alfa Convention, 3350 mile Roadtrip blog - LINK

Last edited by Anfanuts; 01-09-2012 at 04:32 PM. Reason: delineate questions better
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Old 01-09-2012, 09:42 AM
ossodiseppia's Avatar
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They are possibly an aftermarket noise suppressor.
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Old 01-09-2012, 11:02 AM
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Yes, the 3rd pic has them looking like suppressors. The only way to check for certain is to ohm them out.
The bakelite connectors I'm familiar with actually screw into the center of the wire. If you peel back the boot on the wire, take a look inside. If you can't see any metal, try unscrewing the bakelite. If you can see metal, it may be a standard push-in connector.
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Old 01-10-2012, 11:37 AM
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Here is pictures of sets which both, I believe, are original. Both of those have rubber connectors and 5mm wires. Set with black wires is from 1962 TI, thanks for member Alfa Station and green Cavis set is from 1973 Super 1.3
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Old 01-10-2012, 01:48 PM
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The brown/red ones with click-clip for the threaded connector to the spark plug are Bosch, aren't they? Standard on old VWs and Porsches, but leaving off the air seal?
Andrew
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Old 01-10-2012, 06:37 PM
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On my "old" ones, the Bakelite part is just the part that attaches to the spark plug in-lieu of a rubber boot. This attaches without the aluminum bulbous thing screwed onto the spark plug top. It attaches to the threaded rod sticking up (click-clip as you say). Yea Andrew, I think I had these on my old '65 VW long also, seen 'em somewhere. The wire attaches to it somehow and there is a small rubber boot, like one on the dizzy wire, that protects this joint.

The set in the 3rd above looks like someone grafted a Cavis green wire set onto the Bakelite connector, and not too gracefully at that as it incorporates the big spark plug boot from the Cavis wire. This seems wrong. The parts manual only shows wires for early TI's/Supers with or without supressors as needed (no radio in this car). It does not designate manufacturer but it would not surprise me if they are Bocsh as the whole ignition/electrical system is Bosch on this car.

Pic of current situation here, 5mm Cavis new repro wires. Again, I'm just wondering what might have been original and if these were, questions posted above.
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Anfanuts; Ph.A., B.S.A., U. of NOTASME
Now
- Spider Veloce, '69 US1750/4.56 LSD (pictures)(and more) - since '75 for that early mid-life crisis!
- Pinyo - '72 Super, 2L/4.30LSD (pictures)(and more) - for that late mid-life crisis!!
- Gina Lolo Bianca - '65 early Series 1 Super, white/lt.blue-gray, stock 1600/4.56 (pics)(more pics) (Blog) - for the heck of it now!!!
- Mr Meconium- '73 Giulia Super 1.6, Giallo Piper/black, very stock (pics) - for another Euro trip?
Gone-
- El Blanco - '75 Super, ex-Nuova to earlier Super style, 2L/4.30LSD, white/gray-black - pics - SOLD
- Colonel Mustard - '67 Giulia Sprint GTV, Giallo Ocra/black, very stock, 1600 (pics) - LINK
- '70 1300 TI, 2L/4.10LSD, white/black - for a short while only . . .
- Benjamin - '76 ex-Nuova to 1600 Super (pics) - for the 2011 Euro trip
- '69 1750 Berlina (wish I still had)
Links
Pinyo's 2010, 10 wk, 8000 mi "Super" Euro-Trip Blog - LINK
Benjamin's 2011, 7 week, 3500 mile "Super2" Euro-Trip Blog - LINK
Gina Lolo's 2011 Alfa Convention, 3350 mile Roadtrip blog - LINK
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Old 01-11-2012, 06:46 AM
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The resistors were recommended by Alfa if a radio was installed in the car. The parts were not supplied by Alfa. So, that would explain why they look like the ones installed on a VW. The attached information sheet from 1970 covers the installation.

I hope this helps with your documentation, Bruce. That's a good looking car you've got there.
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File Type: pdf IS 63.70.2.1, Radio Installation.pdf (575.3 KB, 59 views)
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Old 01-11-2012, 07:31 AM
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As an FYI, right around the time the above Info Sheet was published, Alfa started to switch from the green, non-resistor (suppression) ignition wires to resistor (suppression) wires which were red in color. The new resistor wires eliminated the need for separate, add-on resistors on each wire.
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Old 01-11-2012, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papajam View Post
As an FYI, right around the time the above Info Sheet was published, Alfa started to switch from the green, non-resistor (suppression) ignition wires to resistor (suppression) wires which were red in color. The new resistor wires eliminated the need for separate, add-on resistors on each wire.
You mentioned that on the phone last night when we were discussing this thread. So, Bruce's 72 Super (Pinyo) should have the red wires to be correct. And, the 65, should have the green wires.
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Old 01-11-2012, 08:03 AM
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On paper, yes.

But I don't think that there is any way to know what exactly was on a particular car when it left the factory when the change to red wires was taking place. So one might argue that either the red or green wires would be correct the Bruce's 72. The 65 is a different matter though. It would have been supplied with green wires.
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Old 01-11-2012, 08:42 AM
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My '69 Berlina (10548) has those brown resistors and green wires. The radio was locally installed at time of purchase, so they may have been installed then. Regards Ian
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Old 01-13-2012, 11:25 AM
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Gents, I have perused these posts several times. Thanks for your thoughts.

Some follow-on questions:

A. What document(s) cite that only "green" was original; document citation needed if available. PM indicates no colors and no options/alternatives. As papajam always indicated, Alfa lit (1st deg) takes precedence over outside lit (2nd deg), to him. Is this "anecdotal" (3rd deg). That is fine if so.

B. Are the brown connectors on my original black/Bakelite set resistors or just connectors? That is not clear to me. They appear to just be connectors. The PM seems to show a resistor insert to the connector for radio noise suppression. AFAIK, my car has never had a radio installed.

@VeloceOne - do they look kinda grafted like the picture of the green car above with the Bakelite thing attached to a long spark plug connector??

------------

I have inferred answers as follows [xxx]:

1. Were these indeed original style - black w/ Bakelite?
==>[Maybe not, perhaps aftermarket Bosch, citation needed, A above]

2. Did green Cavis wires come on early (ca 65) Supers? In 5 or 7mm?? I read that 5mm were on 101's and 65 105's share some in common but later 105's took 7mm.
==>[possibly, see 1 & A. No answer on 5 vs. 7mm. Chris at Highwood indicated this differentiated 101's form 105's.]

3. Did any Cavis green wires come with the Bakelite end connectors ? (I ask this as from the ABB pic attached, not of mine, where it looks like original Bakelite connectors were cobbled onto Cavis green wires)
==> [VeloceOne says possibly but possibly not OE.]

Cheers all, B

4. Will I damage anything if I pry up the rubber end from the Bakelite piece? Is it a plug-in? I am considering putting the Cavis green wires onto the Bakelite connectors.
==> [Probably no damage, pry and unscrew]
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Anfanuts; Ph.A., B.S.A., U. of NOTASME
Now
- Spider Veloce, '69 US1750/4.56 LSD (pictures)(and more) - since '75 for that early mid-life crisis!
- Pinyo - '72 Super, 2L/4.30LSD (pictures)(and more) - for that late mid-life crisis!!
- Gina Lolo Bianca - '65 early Series 1 Super, white/lt.blue-gray, stock 1600/4.56 (pics)(more pics) (Blog) - for the heck of it now!!!
- Mr Meconium- '73 Giulia Super 1.6, Giallo Piper/black, very stock (pics) - for another Euro trip?
Gone-
- El Blanco - '75 Super, ex-Nuova to earlier Super style, 2L/4.30LSD, white/gray-black - pics - SOLD
- Colonel Mustard - '67 Giulia Sprint GTV, Giallo Ocra/black, very stock, 1600 (pics) - LINK
- '70 1300 TI, 2L/4.10LSD, white/black - for a short while only . . .
- Benjamin - '76 ex-Nuova to 1600 Super (pics) - for the 2011 Euro trip
- '69 1750 Berlina (wish I still had)
Links
Pinyo's 2010, 10 wk, 8000 mi "Super" Euro-Trip Blog - LINK
Benjamin's 2011, 7 week, 3500 mile "Super2" Euro-Trip Blog - LINK
Gina Lolo's 2011 Alfa Convention, 3350 mile Roadtrip blog - LINK

Last edited by Anfanuts; 01-13-2012 at 12:14 PM. Reason: korrect typos
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  #13 (permalink)  
Old 01-13-2012, 12:20 PM
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Scanning reference books for color pics. Not many.

I can make out green wires in Tabucchi in a rare color engine bay pic (63-66 Sprint GT) but cannot make out the detail on the connectors. No doubt early 60's 101's/105's had green Cavis wires (with rubber and Bakelite connectors??) from pictorial and anecdotal evidence. Was the black Bosch also an option of just aftermarket?

Next Fusi but my Quattroroute on Giulias is "checked out".

From another inquiry on AF decals, note Andrew the concentric tub-style air filter canister. Not offset like a or most Giulia Supers/TI's.
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Anfanuts; Ph.A., B.S.A., U. of NOTASME
Now
- Spider Veloce, '69 US1750/4.56 LSD (pictures)(and more) - since '75 for that early mid-life crisis!
- Pinyo - '72 Super, 2L/4.30LSD (pictures)(and more) - for that late mid-life crisis!!
- Gina Lolo Bianca - '65 early Series 1 Super, white/lt.blue-gray, stock 1600/4.56 (pics)(more pics) (Blog) - for the heck of it now!!!
- Mr Meconium- '73 Giulia Super 1.6, Giallo Piper/black, very stock (pics) - for another Euro trip?
Gone-
- El Blanco - '75 Super, ex-Nuova to earlier Super style, 2L/4.30LSD, white/gray-black - pics - SOLD
- Colonel Mustard - '67 Giulia Sprint GTV, Giallo Ocra/black, very stock, 1600 (pics) - LINK
- '70 1300 TI, 2L/4.10LSD, white/black - for a short while only . . .
- Benjamin - '76 ex-Nuova to 1600 Super (pics) - for the 2011 Euro trip
- '69 1750 Berlina (wish I still had)
Links
Pinyo's 2010, 10 wk, 8000 mi "Super" Euro-Trip Blog - LINK
Benjamin's 2011, 7 week, 3500 mile "Super2" Euro-Trip Blog - LINK
Gina Lolo's 2011 Alfa Convention, 3350 mile Roadtrip blog - LINK

Last edited by Anfanuts; 02-02-2012 at 03:18 PM.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 02-02-2012, 03:16 PM
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Additional Info

After some time away and a few projects, I inspected the wireset more closely.

- The black wire says, "BOSCH" and they mic out at just under 7mm in diameter.

- The Bakelite connector screws off with a coarse thread screw in the head of the Bakelite connector once you carefully peel the small boot back.

- The end of the Bakelite connector says: "1 Kohm (ed. in symbol), BREMI (ed.?) - GERMANY KE4 - 10229N/1 -

- They ohmed out at ~1000 (1k) ohms

------------

Some thoughts:

+ They appear not to be any kind of suppressor but just a click-on plug connector (connecting to the threaded post). Standard plug wires.

+ The "TI/Super" parts manual ("62-4/70") does not list any manufacturer or alternates.

+ Still searching to determine if they were a possible original cable or aftermarket. I have seen pics of cars with Bakelite plug connectors on 101's or early 105's.

+ The plug connectors could be put on 7mm Cavis green wires with the screw-on feature also if that was correct. A 5mm wire would be too small.

Any more anecdotal info from anyone is appreciated.
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__________________
Anfanuts; Ph.A., B.S.A., U. of NOTASME
Now
- Spider Veloce, '69 US1750/4.56 LSD (pictures)(and more) - since '75 for that early mid-life crisis!
- Pinyo - '72 Super, 2L/4.30LSD (pictures)(and more) - for that late mid-life crisis!!
- Gina Lolo Bianca - '65 early Series 1 Super, white/lt.blue-gray, stock 1600/4.56 (pics)(more pics) (Blog) - for the heck of it now!!!
- Mr Meconium- '73 Giulia Super 1.6, Giallo Piper/black, very stock (pics) - for another Euro trip?
Gone-
- El Blanco - '75 Super, ex-Nuova to earlier Super style, 2L/4.30LSD, white/gray-black - pics - SOLD
- Colonel Mustard - '67 Giulia Sprint GTV, Giallo Ocra/black, very stock, 1600 (pics) - LINK
- '70 1300 TI, 2L/4.10LSD, white/black - for a short while only . . .
- Benjamin - '76 ex-Nuova to 1600 Super (pics) - for the 2011 Euro trip
- '69 1750 Berlina (wish I still had)
Links
Pinyo's 2010, 10 wk, 8000 mi "Super" Euro-Trip Blog - LINK
Benjamin's 2011, 7 week, 3500 mile "Super2" Euro-Trip Blog - LINK
Gina Lolo's 2011 Alfa Convention, 3350 mile Roadtrip blog - LINK

Last edited by Anfanuts; 02-02-2012 at 06:15 PM. Reason: add "xxx"
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Old 02-02-2012, 04:01 PM
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That's a nice discovery, Bruce. After you posted, Papajam and I got together and looked through some manuals. Well, he did all of the looking. They can be found on page 291 of the 1750 GTV/Spider parts manual. They also pop up in the 1300 GT Junior (Pubblic. 1516) on table 69, Giulia Super parts manual (Pubblic 1520) on page 277, Table 105, 1750 Berlina manual (Pubblic. 1380-R1) page 272 Table 90 and possibly a bunch more. I got tired of looking after the forth manual.

The Alfa part number is 105.23.05.905.00

So, it looks like I need to publicly eat a little crow and retract my statement about them being an aftermarket product. SLURP, BURP.
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