Super/TI Comparison's

[Anfanuts]

I have gotten several pieces of good information on the "early" 65 features query. Hopefully more to come. (The table is revised and attached. PS: deleted, revised and added later). Thanks to all who have responded.

At this point in gathering data (SN/date/features), it appears the transition point from apparent “early” to “later” features is in this ~5 weeks and ~2500 cars range between SN-317,781 (#12,781) Sept. 22 and SN-320,251 (#15,251) Oct. 28

This transition of these features may not have been all at once in this range (but as the parts bins ran out). We can narrow this down and confirm it with more Sept-Oct. manufactured car owners reporting in. Data on early cars is good but there is only one data point for "later" 65 cars.

Not addressed well is door hinges and sumps.

I've enlisted some real expert help on the broader table of 1600 Super's SN's and features, this query here being a small subset. Look for more on that!

Bruce

[Anfanuts]

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfa2go Ok here are more pics of 317781

[Koenraad]

I just found 318752 (currently for sale in Italy)...

No Red Lines on the Rev counter (hard to see)
No breather to intake

[Anfanuts]

Thanks Koenraad,

Add PS: "According to our documentation files, the chassis number AR 318752 originally corresponds to an Alfa Romeo Giulia Super (105.26), manufactured on the 7th October 1965 and sold on the 26th March 1966 in Italy. The body colour is graphite grey, with grey interiors." AS

That narrows the apparent gap in the theory on the "changeover" to about 1500 cars in about 3 weeks in October 65 (7th-28th). It would be great to have a couple of cars on the "later" side of the car you mentioned above (above 318,752), and a sight of the bolting tabs on that car. Erik gave some info (PM) on his car of his in boxes in storage but no features details, yet, but welded/early hinges.

We need more info on cars between SN 318,752 and 320,251 now.

PS2: I also note that the washer bags on all these cars and in pictures in old reviews and brochures, is on the intake side of the engine bay.

PS3: I'll add any revised documentation in the latest relevant post AND delete it form earlier posts concurrently. This will keep the information fresh. (Unfortunately the Word table just went over the 97.7kb limit and needed some work to re-post. It will be at the limit again soon.)

[Koenraad]

No so fast Bruce! ;-)

This is VIN 330454 with engine number 18015 which is a an older engine according Fusi!! (Link to the Fusi Numbers)

Calculating back, that engine should have belonged to a LHD car with VIN between 322600 and 323015.

- No breather!
- No cam cover tabs!
- Red lines!

(I found the pictures here)

Unfortunately, this means that Frank Alloca's Super (320251) doesn't have the original engine anymore...

I think the breather came together with the Spider Duetto in March 1966.
See:
- Madaro/Nada's "Alfa Romeo Duetto Spider" on page 36
- Clarke/Brooklands reprints of tests of the Spider on page 27.

And according Dirk-Michael Conradt the tabs came in january '67, see page 89-91 in "Auto's die Geschichte machten - Alfa Romeo Giulietta & Giulia, 750-101-105", Motor Buch Verlag (German language).

[Anfanuts]

Interesting find! But at least it has red-lines on the tach, a "later" feature.

We've always known that this probably was not a uniform one-day/one-week changeover but as parts ran out and were replaced with new ones, in this case the tach & signal repeaters? Several have cautioned about this in PM's. The additional breather information could point to the new Version changeover (the Feb. 66 official new S1 Version?). And the tabs later yet?

We can confirm this with more cars on the high side of the SN range for 65, in and after October. And someone with Fusi and Frank's engine SN could check Fusi for clues there (how far does body and engine SN data go). Rob understood it to be original.

Also, form similar reviews on Spiders, I was informed that the body shop (Pinninfarina in that case) had bodys stacked in a warehouse and would somewhat haphazardly send them to be completed, so SN's were not always perfectly in order. That may not apply to an in-house Super though?

It certainly does not look like a "revolutionary" sudden and complete Version change but an "evolutionary" change. With evolution in tachs, tabs, breathers, sumps and door hinges, and among what else? For example, I also note red/orange turn signal repeaters on the dash in "early" cars, yet they are green later, as in the case just above!!

So the hunt goes on!!

PS: Frank is checking his engine SN to check against Fusi.

[autofair]

I'm doing my best to understand the bumf that is being posted on this thread...I'm not put off that my Super may not or does not have its original engine, but for the life of me can not deduce that conclusion from the thread..some guidance please.. Frank Allocca

[Anfanuts]

Frank, E-mail sent. B

PS: And it may or may not be original. Data is inconclusive. Just theories.

[Koenraad]

Well, we are now 9 pages ahead and we still don't know how an Giulia Super should look like compared to an Ti or Ti Super.

It's time to put things in perspective.

So let's start with the first Super, the 'Bollino d'Oro' built from jan. '65 till nov. '69.

Let's revise Derek's list :

*11th March 1965 - Official birth of the Giulia Super 'Bollino d'Oro'*
At the Geneva Motor Show the Giulia Super (Model type 105.26, Engine type 526) was unveiled.
Intention with this model was to commercialise the sporting successes of
the earlier Giulia Ti Super (type 105.16).

Other 105-series or related 101-series cars then already on the market:

- 105.14 : Giulia Ti, Columnshifted gearbox (since june 1962)
- 101.21 : Giulia (Giulietta model) Sprint Speciale (since march 1963)
- 105.16 : Giulia Ti Super (since April 1963)
- 101.18 : Giulia (Giulietta model) Spider Veloce (since may 1964)
- 105.06 : Giulia 1300 (since may 1964)
- 105.08 : Giulia Ti with Floorshifted gearbox (since may 1964)

As Bruce discovered, the very first Giulia Super (VIN 305001) was actually produced on 22nd december 1964.

1.1 Exterior items different from the Ti (105.08 and 105.14)

- Grill from the Ti and Ti Super, but with a larger Center heart which was splitted (Top piece mounted on the hood)
- Vertical venting openings in the windshield bottom panel (parafan)
- Bollino d'Oro's (Round Golden Alfa badges) on the C pillars
- Trim (SS) on the sills (outside, under the doors) aka 'Rocker Spears'
- Script in Italic 'alfa romeo' on the center of the trunk, at right 'giulia super'
---> Little remark : Non of the scripts ever used during the Bollino d'Oro's life time, uses caps!
- Bigger tail lights (same design was used until the end, so also for the Nuova Super)
- No chrome strips around (parallel to) the tail lights

1.2 Exterior items identical to the Ti (105.08 and 105.14)

- Four headlamps
- Front bumper (chromium plated steel), so with dents underneeth the parking lights/side marker and rounded over riders
- Rear bumper (chromium plated steel) : Over riders in line with the reflectors of the taillights
- Licence plate lights 'inside' the rear bumper
- Trim (SS) on the A-pillar and Rain Gutters
- Trim (SS) piece in the middle of the bonnet
- Doorhandles (small)
- 'Winged' sidemarkers on the front wing panels
- Wheel rims and covers with small inner rings (mounted with clips)

2.1 Interior items different to the Ti

- Newly styled seperate Front seats with 'curly shoulder ends' and magazine holders on their back.
- New Dash with two Seperate dials (Rev counter - without a red zone - and Speedo), in between a little clock.
- Room for a radio in the middle of the dash (covered with a chromed plate if no radio was installed)
- Script in italic on the right side of the dash 'giulia super'
- Floor mounted 5 speed gear change ( early Ti was column shift only, later ones also had floor shifted gear change)
- Doorpanels (completely flat, altough some had extra garnements)
- Inside door and window handles

2.2 Interior items identical to the Ti Super

- Steering wheel

3.1 Technical items different from the Ti

- Two Dual sidedraft carburetors (Weber 40 DCOE 24)
- Camshafts (up to s/n 862000)
- Giulia Sprint GT style Air Intake : alu manifold on the
carburettors, airfilter cannister at the other side of the engine,
interconnecting hose.
- Produced 98hp at 5500 rpm
- End ratio : 9/41
- 5 speed gearbox (interchangeable with the Ti)

3.2 Technical items identical to the Ti

- Bore and Stroke (1570 cc)
- Crankshaft (even the same one as a Ti Super)
- Engine base block
- Cylinders and Cylinder liners
- Cylinder head (even the same one as a Ti Super, part 101.21.01.053.00) up to s/n 862000.
- Inlet and outlet valves
- Oilpump
- 15" wheels with 155 tyres
- Dunlop disc brakes (all round) with booster (just like all post '64 Ti's)
- Handbrake : Umbrella type (under the dash)

Quote:

First conclusions The first change (or tweak) will only appear in dec. '65 / jan. '66 so we can savely conclude this: 1. The engine was not identical to the 101-series, only the cylinderhead which in turn was identical to the 'top of the line' 101.21 and 101.18. As is documentated, the same head is used in the Ti Super, nice! --> So apart from the cylinderhead, no other 'fundamental' parts from the 101-serie were used! The parts used from the 101-serie are more in the class of nuts, rings, washers, shims, bearings, etc ... 2. The myth of the 'pre-series' Giulia Super only has as subject those cars which were built before the official launch (definition of 'pre-serie'). In our case, only those built in dec. '64, jan '65, feb '65 and beginning of march '65, cars with VIN number up to approx. 306501 or perhaps 307000 (thx Bruce!) --> Those cars don't have any technical differences!

[Gasolina]

Great work Koenraad! Jorma

[101/105guy]

Very nice work !!
I would ad that the wheels with bumps for the hubcap came out earlier than Sept. '67.
At that time 14" wheels were an option to the earlier 15".

[Koenraad]

Thx for the compliments!

Now regarding the wheels ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by 101/105guy I would ad that the wheels with bumps for the hubcap came out earlier than Sept. '67. At that time 14" wheels were an option to the earlier 15".

[101/105guy]

My thought is that the 1750 model year started in late '67 and would have been available on GTV, Berlina, Spider or Super.

[Koenraad]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 101/105guy My thought is that the 1750 model year started in late '67 and would have been available on GTV, Berlina, Spider or Super.

[giuliarni]

Hello Koenraad, great summary, thanks.

As I am the owner of a nice & original '67 Super (#859426, produced 20.06.1967) I like to comment on two features:
my car does neither have a passenger doorlock nor a second wiper speed!
To my knowledge this was introduced together with model `68 in September 67 for the Frankfurt motor show.

Best regards, giuliarni.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koenraad Jan. '67 Brakes : ATE Brakes in stead of Dunlop --> this also included a different rear axle (less brackets needed for the rear brakes) Engine : Two extra tabs on the Cam cover and engine block. Gearbox : Molybdene coated synchromesh rings Exterior : a doorlock on the passenger side Interior : a second wiper speed Summer '67 Jump in VIN numbering (LHD) from 349999 to 859001. Nothing technical. Sept. '67 Starting from VIN 862001 (LHD) and 722501 (RHD) Exterior : New front grill with 5 horizontal bars Exterior : Trim around the headlamps from pressed Stainless Steel Exterior : Script in italic 'giulia super' on the bonnet Exterior : Script 'alfa romeo' on the hood moves from the center to the left Exterior : New Side markers (fish shaped) on the front wings Exterior : Wheel discs now mounted with knuckles in stead of clips Interior : New Steering wheel. Same as GT Veloce Engine : Cylinderhead of the GT Veloce (type 105.36) Part N° 105.36.01.053.00 Engine : 'New' Camshafts (The old ones from the Ti !?) Together with this timeline, one can start thinking how we will call all the different models from the 'Bollino d'Oro'. I will make a proposal in a next post.