BRE Trans Am Datsun

[italcarguy]

Since I am in the Trans Am mood tonight, here is the "other side" of the Trans Am Series. John Morton's BRE Datsun 510. I shot these at the SEMA show a couple years back. Enjoy!

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[Greg Gordon]

For those of us who are not too familiar with the Trans Am series can someone explain just how the 510s beat Alfas in 1971 and 1972. It must be a case of develpment over design because the motors in those 510s are fairly primative.

[ECARRILLO]

Greg,

PURE LUCK!!!!!!!!!

Well actually a lot of things came into play..........but I am still mad!!!! It was a very competitive series and the rules made all cars pretty equal.

There are a lot of good stories about the races, but those guys more familiar to the 2.5 Challenge may tell them better than myself.........

[carlosvaz75]

Well...this is a mystery, but...as you have said this is a quetion of developement, and money to do it.
Other thing, these Dasuns have a anusual (at the time) rear independent suspencion and this coul make the diference...

[conedriver]

I followed the series avidly in those days, and had a nodding aquaintance with Horst Kwech (if you availed yourself of any of his preparation services, the nickname was "blank check Kwech"). My opinion then (and now) was that the Datsun performance proved you could throw a lot of money at an inferior car and make a "silk purse out of a cows ear". One of the Alfa dealers had a standing offer to do performance testing between a stock GTV and a stock Datsun, with the winner getting title to the loosing car. There were never any Datsun dealers, teams, or owners that stepped up to this. It's not that the Datsun was a bad car, but a stock GTV would blow a stock Datsun 510 into the weeds.

You have to give credit to Pete Brock. He promoted a lot of money from Datsun, and got them a lot of publicity from the race victories. But... These BRE Datsuns were in essence factory cars, while the Alfas were privately developed and entered. Horst Kwech and Herb Wetson were the best, and the Wetson money came from a string of drive-in restauants.

Datsun, under a Mr. Yamamoto, used the racing sponsorship as a country wide promotion for their cars. I had a racer friend who also sold Alfa, BMW and Datsun, and Yamamoto was a legend in the Datsun community (I'm pretty sure that was his name. He was a maverick that didn't fit into the Japanese "system", so they sent him to Australia, then the U. S. See "The Reckoning", an interesting book documenting the parallel histories of Datsun and Ford). I crewed for a National Championship winning Datsun B210, and at the SCCA Road Atlanta runoffs, Datsun had a circus tent that held all of their entrants with free parts, technical assistance, and dinners.

Also, the SCCA had NASCAR-type rules to promote equivalency: weight was juggled in relation to number of camshafts and this gave the Datsuns a built-in advantage. Given everything else as equal, it's the same old story that cubic dollars will always win....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Gordon For those of us who are not too familiar with the Trans Am series can someone explain just how the 510s beat Alfas in 1971 and 1972. It must be a case of develpment over design because the motors in those 510s are fairly primative.

[modena782002]

I followed the series fanatically from 1969-1972. I was only 10-13 at the time, but my father and I would go to the old Bryar Motorsports Park (now NH International Spdwy), Lime Rock, and Watkins Glen, to see Horst Kwech and Gus Andrey in the Alfa's do battle with the BRE Datsun's. Perhaps I am wrong, but I believe that the Datsun had a 2.5 liter engine as opposed to the Alfa's 1750 & 2000. I also recall that from 1966-1970, the class was a 2 liter class, comprised mostly of Alfa's, BMW's, and even the occasional Mini Cooper. The BMW 2002's were completely outclassed by the Alfa and Datsun. I did witness an Alfa victory or two in those days, so the Datsun (much hated by me then, something that I still hold against Nissan now) didn't have it all that easy.

Nick D'Eri
1992 164S
1968 Fiat Dino Spider

[AaronC]

Here is a good site that has a ton of information from the early days of Datsun's racing program. Not a lot of info on the 510s.
But it does have some stuff on BRE.
http://www.datsun.org/fairlady/usindex.htm
The Solex setups were available on stock 2.0L SRLs in 67.5. These made a good base for Grass Roots racing in the late 60s.

[PSk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by conedriver It's not that the Datsun was a bad car, but a stock GTV would blow a stock Datsun 510 into the weeds.

[conedriver]

Pete,

It's been a while since I thought about this, but I must challenge your statement that an MGB engine will produce more power per cc. than an Alfa Nord engine. Obviously, this is not true for stock engines so let's make sure we are comparing engines modified to the same rules. Engines are air pumps and an MGB isn't even a cross-flow head design; The intake and exhaust ports are on the same side of the head so the intake charge must reverse 180 degrees to exit, the four intake ports are siamesed into two, as are the second and third exhaust ports. The Alfa is a true cross-flow design with individual ports for each intake and exhaust valve and must respond better to known principles of intake and exhaust tuning.

If an Alfa DOHC engine is a 1950's design, a pushrod, non-cross flow head, siamesed port MGB engine is a larger version of an MG TA, circa 1935. Right?

My memory is that a 2000cc Alfa engine will produce around 225 HP when prepared to SCCA rules. I don't have any figures for MGB engines, so maybe some of the racers can provide some up to date numbers. Do you have any comparisons for each engine prepared to your domestic rules? (and what are these rules?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSk .....While I am an Alfa nutter, we all do have to accept that the engine was 50's technology and not even as efficient as a pushrod MGB motor ... sad to say but true. Yep you can produce more hp out of those cast iron lumps per cc than a Alfa Nord engine will ever see ... Pete

[PSk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by conedriver My memory is that a 2000cc Alfa engine will produce around 225 HP when prepared to SCCA rules. I don't have any figures for MGB engines, so maybe some of the racers can provide some up to date numbers. Do you have any comparisons for each engine prepared to your domestic rules? (and what are these rules?) No offense intended. All in good fun...

[Greg Gordon]

The MGB motor sucks. It's power output levels are entirely a case of develpment over design, much like the small block Chevy V8.