Flaminia Convertibile 3C - Page 5 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums
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post #61 of 93 (permalink) Old 07-20-2015, 01:35 PM Thread Starter
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The most expensive way of making mayonnaise

First of all: the mirror mission has been accomplished. The picture shows the last remaining one.

A few weeks ago, two Flaminias and one Aprilia made a 4.000 km trip to the International Nordic Lancia Meeting in Turku, Finland. My Convertibile had not been driven for long distances so far, so it was quite exciting. After some 300 kms the v-belt had been eaten up by one of the pulleys, although I swear I fitted a brand new one, hm. Luckily a friend of mine provided a spare one. He came in a Fulvia Sport to bring it. Classic car service on high level.

Later, when we entered the ferry, the battery was down, which was not due to belt issues, but to a week generator. Anyhow, finally we got to Turku without further problems, had a stop over in Helsinki as well.

On the way back home it was raining heavily, but the car stayed dry inside. When i was back home in the shop, I just wanted to check the oil level. But the dip stick did not show oil but a verry ugly sort of mayonnaise. Obviously some water had found its way into the oil sump.

I had refurbished the engine during restoration and was extremely frustated seeing this damage. After coming down a little bit, my standpoint now is: New task, new challenge, new tools to be made. This time: equipment to apply leakage tests on the heads and probably on the complete engine. The repair manual is showing how to do it.

No need to say that the motor is out already.

Hubert
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Last edited by Tedesco; 07-21-2015 at 09:39 AM. Reason: add pics
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post #62 of 93 (permalink) Old 07-20-2015, 02:13 PM
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The problem with the non-Italian workshops are the same always: they haven't the original Lancia tools and manuals to fit up an engine and they use modern spare materials with a completely different tolerance. Sad the hear your misadventure, but this isn't an irreparable damage.
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post #63 of 93 (permalink) Old 07-20-2015, 04:55 PM
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Very sorry to hear of this very unwelcome problem. Your positive attitude is something I'll try to emulate when my turn comes.

Have you considered doing a chemical analysis of your mayonnaise ? I also wonder whether you noticed any drop in the coolant level. Perhaps I'm demonstrating ignorance, but I'd want to rule out the possibility that the source of water might be external to the engine before starting a repair.

Don
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post #64 of 93 (permalink) Old 07-21-2015, 05:29 AM
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yikes - not sure I could be so positive if my Flaminia had the same issue - I couldn't face rebuilding my engine again!

Good luck Hubert - I'm sure your posts of its rebuild will be as watchable as ever!

Dave
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post #65 of 93 (permalink) Old 07-21-2015, 05:39 AM
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Sorry to see this.. hope you can retrace your steps and figure out the cause.. Hate to think repeating the build repeats itself without finding the cause.. Hope its something as simple as forgetting (or failed) an o-ring. The belt issue isn't real encouraging either. I don't know what special maker's tools or knowledge are required to seal a Flaminia engine to keep the coolant and oil systems separated. I'd like to hear more pearls of wisdom on that one.
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post #66 of 93 (permalink) Old 07-21-2015, 09:21 AM Thread Starter
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Leakage found

The engine arrived at the company this morning. When opening the valve covers the whole mess became obvious. Virtually everything was covered with emulsion.

When reading the repair manual carefully, you learn that Lancia describes how to do pressure tests with 4 bar to identify leaks caused by corrosion or cracks. They also name the core plugs as to inspect intimitly.

The core plugs had been an issue during the restoration before. On the 3C manifold two of them were corroded through so I had to replace them. That far core plugs at not new to me.

Although I am too fast sometimes and therefore too superficial, this time I took my time to really look closely at things. Each cylinderhead has three core plugs of a certain type (and some others). Five of them were filled with emulsion, one was wet with clear water showing a very small black spot.

When puncturing this with a needle it openend further. I am sure that this is the source of the water. Not quite decided if to only flush the engine several times with new oil or completely dismantle it, clean and dry it all up and assemble again.

As I had started making the covers for the pressure test yesterday, I finished that also. Will make a pressure test on our pressure test bench anyhow, just to see how it works. We can test up to 100 bar, shall i sacrifice one spare head????

When properly set up we might get a scaled down fountain of Lake Geneva.

And what is the resumé? The whole thing is not the drama it appeared to be, isn´t it?

Hubert
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post #67 of 93 (permalink) Old 07-21-2015, 10:27 AM
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Well done. That test bench looks pretty sophisticated for a non-Italian workshop. But I would move outside your new premises for the 100 bar test.

For another example that prevention is generally easier than rehabilitation, attached is a photo of my original Flaminia crankshaft with a small problem fortunately discovered by Omicron before reassembly.

I wonder, is there a particular point of wear that you could inspect to determine the extent of possible damage from compromised lubrication, without doing a complete tear-down ?
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post #68 of 93 (permalink) Old 07-21-2015, 11:16 AM
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Flamina Zagato at Costa Rican Mall

Hi All,

This weekend there was a car show at a San Jose mall. I was surprised by the diversity of European sports cars that came under the threat of rain. Thought you might like to see these two shots, taken under a tent after dark with very little light.

Best,

Clark
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post #69 of 93 (permalink) Old 07-21-2015, 12:08 PM Thread Starter
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Don,

the only thing i could think of is the magnetic oil drain plug and the oil pressure which in my case was perfect. But the more I think about it, the more I tend to dismantle it.

Luckily the pressure tests run in the company, where we do have the testing devices. (We manufacture control valves, which require these tests) i only made the covers to fit the head, the test stand itself belongs to our equipment. One is always right to handle these pressure things with care. I admit that I always step back, when pressure tests are running. I will post a pic of a burst valve tomorrow.

My shop is a different place.

Your photo is interesting. Would be very interesting to know when the crack formed.

Hubert


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post #70 of 93 (permalink) Old 07-21-2015, 12:25 PM
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Well done. That test bench looks pretty sophisticated for a non-Italian workshop. But I would move outside your new premises for the 100 bar test.

For another example that prevention is generally easier than rehabilitation, attached is a photo of my original Flaminia crankshaft with a small problem fortunately discovered by Omicron before reassembly.

I wonder, is there a particular point of wear that you could inspect to determine the extent of possible damage from compromised lubrication, without doing a complete tear-down ?
I'd never ever put an engine together without Magnafluxing the crank and rods.
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post #71 of 93 (permalink) Old 07-21-2015, 07:27 PM
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When puncturing this with a needle it openend further. I am sure that this is the source of the water. Not quite decided if to only flush the engine several times with new oil or completely dismantle it, clean and dry it all up and assemble again.
Sorry to hear the bad news. The core plug weakness was unknown to me until you mentioned it. Definitely, this is something useful to know and check for on these old cars . . .

I suggest that you drop the bottom pan and check the bearings. Assuming that the engine showed no other signs of distress (like knocking or overheating) and, if they look OK, you can breathe a sigh of relief. These old Lancia engines are quite robust and if the bearings look good then in all likelihood you'll be safe flushing the engine, putting in new oil and coolant and then driving the car If the bearings are scored but the crank is good, you could just replace the bearings and see if the engine performs OK. At that point, however, you are at the 50/50 point and, if it were me and I was doing the work myself, I'd be thinking about taking the engine apart and rebuilding. Do keep us posted . . .
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post #72 of 93 (permalink) Old 07-21-2015, 07:36 PM
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Your photo is interesting. Would be very interesting to know when the crack formed.
Omicron said:

"The crank, main bearings and rod bearings were all fit for re-use, or so we thought until we found a crack in the rear main journal. It runs longitudinally and enters the rearmost web, goes across the thrust face and into the diameter provided for the rear oil seal. It was visible and could be felt with a finger nail.

I have never seen such a crack on any engine. Usually a crank crack is in the fillet between a journal and web and is circumferential. I wonder if this is a manufacturing defect. Certainly the engine was running with it, presumably for years. "

Believed accurate mileage was 96,000 Km.
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post #73 of 93 (permalink) Old 07-22-2015, 01:02 PM Thread Starter
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Checked my stock of heads and found out that the old heads up to 7/1960 had a different type of plug. None of them showed any defects. The younger heads have the new type of plugs. One of them had a clearly visible hole. Also found some photos of the repair of the inlet manifold.

The decision to take the engine apart has been taken. It does not make sense to risk a serious damage saving a couple of working hours. This will have to wait two weeks due to familiy festivities and an invitation to drive some AMG-Mercedes through the Alps.

Hubert
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post #74 of 93 (permalink) Old 07-22-2015, 01:08 PM
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I think that you are repairing the cylinder heads before assembling the engine is a very good idea. I finished restoring my 1961 Alfa Romeo Sprint Veloce and had to deal with many leaks; gas tank, water leaks, brake line leaks and finally repaired all of them.
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post #75 of 93 (permalink) Old 07-22-2015, 01:29 PM Thread Starter
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Yes you are right and I will pay special attention to the newly discovered matters. But as you may confirm it is one thing to reassemble a frame off restored car "statically". When driving it, many small issues will show up, according to my experience it takes at least one year on the road to get them fixed. I took my first Flavia Convertibile on a 2.000 km trip immediately after registration. While my that time girl friend and two friends were sunbathing i spent two days on/in/under the car checking every single nut and bolt. But after that she was undestructable, served as wedding coach several times (once for my own), was used as a tow car for a stranded MG B on an UK-trip and never let me down.

Hubert


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