04-20-2011, 04:54 PM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 6,281
|
|
 Quote:
Originally Posted by sptsdn
Yes but your electrical consumption and demand is completely different than a plant's consumption and demand. A plant doesn't care if cloud cover rolls in and interrupts the "signal" for a while. I think you'd get pretty tired of your lights, AC, refrigerator, and TV turning on and off at random intervals throughout the day. This is the problem with so-called alternative energy sources - they don't respond to changes in electrical demand. A wind and solar plant create electricity when they want to, not when they need to.
|
That is why you have batteries ... nobody builds these systems to directly connect to solar panels. The solar panels charge batteries and the batteries then power the devices.
You can debate all you like, but again these things do work. There are houses in Sydney that are producing so much electricity they are propping up the main grid and getting paid for it. And new technology solar panels only need a fraction of the sun light that old panels needed too.
Also the energy needs of a single house are low enough that you do not need a lot of solar panels and thus the system is over time getting cheaper. Soon it will be so cheap that it's a no brainer AND even if it is not the full answer it will make a huge difference to the amount of power the power plants have to produce.
This IS the future AND most importantly as we have seen with Japan it is a heck of a lot safer than nuclear power, and as I have already stated the saving of costs in energy distribution is enormous and means those resources can be used for something more productive than simply transporting electricity around. Plus there is a safety benefit ... think storms and dangerous power lines falling down. Once we only have power lines going to industrial areas it will be a lot safer for housing developments.
Pete
__________________
ps: Remember it's all just opinions 
'71 1750 Series 2 GTV: http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/showthread.php?p=208078
Last edited by PSk; 04-20-2011 at 04:59 PM.
|
|
Sponsored Links
|
Advertisement
| |
|
04-20-2011, 05:02 PM
|
 |
*~*
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Seattle area
Posts: 3,204
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subtle
...During the energy "crises" of the 1970s there were "refrigerator nazis" telling everyone not to open the fridge door too many times in a day...You had to be there....
|
If you remember the 1970s you weren't really "there".
   
__________________
Imagine all the people, sharing all the world.....
Support ALL your AlfaBB moderators!
Gordy Hyde
AROC-USA Secretary
Home chapter - NWARC
1971 Junior Zagato 1750 (1800605)
1974 Spider 2000 Iniezione (no carbs)
Last edited by Nicola; 04-20-2011 at 05:05 PM.
|
04-20-2011, 05:44 PM
|
|
Director BC Chapter SNO
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, B C
Posts: 4,414
|
|
|
Lol
Good one.
I remember the 60s as well.
Hippy beads and sandals, BC Bud, hearing the Stones' "Satisfaction" for the first time.
Sigh.... 
__________________
Bob
1962 Giulietta Spider: Grafite Grigio/Red Interior, "Tuned" 2L.
1963 101.12 Giulia Sprint: Dark Blue ,"Tuned" 2 L. Restoration soon to be completed.
1967 Giulia Super: Red/Black Interior,"Tuned" 1750. Added in May 2013.
|
04-20-2011, 06:11 PM
|
|
*~*
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Seattle area
Posts: 3,204
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subtle
Good one.
I remember the 60s as well.
Hippy beads and sandals, BC Bud, hearing the Stones' "Satisfaction" for the first time.
Sigh.... |
Huh? What?
(and isn't "hippy" spelled with an "i" and an "e" ?)
I do remember 'Satisfaction' for the first time....upstate NY, just before the .... shoot, I can't remember what came after that....
__________________
Imagine all the people, sharing all the world.....
Support ALL your AlfaBB moderators!
Gordy Hyde
AROC-USA Secretary
Home chapter - NWARC
1971 Junior Zagato 1750 (1800605)
1974 Spider 2000 Iniezione (no carbs)
|
04-20-2011, 06:16 PM
|
 |
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: May 2006
Location: NW Or & SW Wa
Posts: 1,771
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSk
You can debate all you like, but again these things do work. There are houses in Sydney that are producing so much electricity they are propping up the main grid and getting paid for it. And new technology solar panels only need a fraction of the sun light that old panels needed too.
|
Curious Pete, do you actually have a solar panel yourself? As I said, mine won't do much for a small trailer on a diet, for any given summer weekend, even with brand new batteries to "store" everything but the BS. Wait, there is enough of that here to sustain a grid.
I use no tv, Gas for the fridge, a little radio, no heat, very few lights and it still won't get through a week in the boondocks. Sheesh! Who're ya kidding? The little Honda gas generator is my only good alternative! At least it works!
__________________
Todays toy count: 97 SVT Cobra conv, 74 BMW r60/6, 73 Alfa spider, 52 Chevy Styleline Deluxe, 67 Honda CT90.
Last edited by RC Hiatt; 04-20-2011 at 06:21 PM.
|
04-20-2011, 06:46 PM
|
 |
1966-2013
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Northern NY, USA
Posts: 13,741
|
|
|
Pehaps it something to do with Australia being that much closer to the equator than North America or Europe :shrug:
For as dark as it gets here in the winter for like 15~17 hours at a stretch a solar setup moot. Then you gotta get the frikkin snow off the panels every time it comes down. Ever wonder what a roof rake would do to a panel face? I know it'll rape a metal or shingle roof easily enough.
When you average over 10 feet a winter, that can get to be a huge PITA in like a week if you've got anything else to do in life besides try to maintain the system enough to get the optimum out of the 8 or so hours of actual daylight because the snow has this odd habit of not coming on a compliant user freindly schedual. In fact its more the opposite actually.
Snow during the day? Sorry, you're gonna clean it off, but you're not home so can't, though it doesn't matter because the snowfall blots out most of the light anyway. Snow at night? How early do you want to get up day after day to clear than off, plus the walks, plus the driveway, plus the vehicles if you've no garage, then go to work after all that?
__________________
[i]Darren[/i]
[size=1][b]'84[/b] [b]manufacture[/b] ~ [b]'85[/b] [b]MY Spider Graduate[/b][/size]
[url=http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/spider-1966-up/85437-spider-technical-faq-digest.html][color=green][b][i]Spider technical FAQ[/i][/b][/color][/url]
[url=http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/members/ghnl.html][color=darkblue][size=1][b]ghnl's[/size][/b][/color][/url] [url=http://www.hiperformancestore.com/Ljetspider.htm][color=red][size=1][i][b]'82~'89/Series 3 Spider L~jet diagnostic page[/color][/url][/b][/i]
[color=black][i]as hosted by[/i][/color]
[url=http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/members/greg-gordon.html][color=darkblue][b]Greg Gordon's[/color][/url] [url=http://www.hiperformancestore.com/][color=red][i]HI Performance Store[/color][/url][/b][/i][/size] [size=1][b][i]&[/i][/b][/size] [url=http://www.okinjectors.com/][color=red][size=1][b][i]OK Injectors[/i][/b][/size][/color][/url]
Last edited by Tifosi; 04-20-2011 at 06:50 PM.
|
04-20-2011, 08:08 PM
|
 |
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 303
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSk
That is why you have batteries ... nobody builds these systems to directly connect to solar panels. The solar panels charge batteries and the batteries then power the devices.
|
Yup, as I noted earlier:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sptsdn
I've seen the set-ups where people have solar generators that charge large banks of car batteries in the garage. I always laugh whenever the owner raves about how "green" this set up is as if those car batteries were made from happy thoughts and children's laughter, not harmful chemicals pulled out of the ground in a massive mine.
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSk
You can debate all you like, but again these things do work. There are houses in Sydney that are producing so much electricity they are propping up the main grid and getting paid for it. And new technology solar panels only need a fraction of the sun light that old panels needed too.
|
I'll be the first to say it's good to have a mix of generation and solar and wind have their place. However, sitting here looking at load and generation charts all day I have to say there is no way that these are the be-all, end-all that people make them out to be. Regardless of how efficient they are, they aren't a dispatchable generation that will meet the demand of the load.
How long do these batteries last on a charge? Perhaps overnight at best with nothing more than the refrigerator and a light or two on? What happens if you have an overcast day or two? I just don't see that you can feasibly make solar work without some sort of back-up supply. So now you're putting solar panels on every roof, a bank of batteries in every garage, and an back-up generator in every backyard. This is better than a large generator that can reliability provide the entire city with all the electricity it needs when they need it? That is the equivalent of having everyone drive their own car to and from work instead of using public transportation. It's just not an efficient or effective way of traveling.
Here's my favorite chart that indicate how random wind power can be (same can be said of solar). It's from Bonneville Power Administration and shows the wind generation compared to their load and other generation resources. Take away those other resources and try and provide the electricity that is demanded throughout the day with wind only...not gonna happen very often.
__________________
- Craig
'78 Sport Sedan, '87 Milano Verde, '09 Toyota Land Cruiser, & '13 VW Golf R
|
04-20-2011, 08:36 PM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 6,281
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by sptsdn
How long do these batteries last on a charge? Perhaps overnight at best with nothing more than the refrigerator and a light or two on? What happens if you have an overcast day or two?
|
I don't know the answer to any of these questions. Will do likely next year.
Quote:
|
I just don't see that you can feasibly make solar work without some sort of back-up supply. So now you're putting solar panels on every roof, a bank of batteries in every garage, and an back-up generator in every backyard.
|
Well I won't have a back-up generator in my backyard. You know we can actually survive without power for a couple of days. We don't immediately die . We've had to in the past when storms, or excessive heat, have caused power outages.
Quote:
|
This is better than a large generator that can reliability provide the entire city with all the electricity it needs when they need it? That is the equivalent of having everyone drive their own car to and from work instead of using public transportation. It's just not an efficient or effective way of traveling.
|
Your analogy is incorrect. Having solar power on every house is actually equivalent to public transport not the other way around because it is more efficient. Once these systems get sorted (which they might be already, and thus can handle 2 days without sun without needing a generator) there will be no need for power lines and all the losses and inefficiency that distribution of power costs.
It makes perfect sense, but yes it doesn't if everybody has generators as backup. Over here, Australia, that definitely won't happen, we'll just shug our shoulders and survive the couple of days minus power like we would now. I definitely won't suffer minus the internet for 2 days . Please remember it does not get cold here let alone snow. Thus maybe solar will only be efficient enough in some countries and other solutions will need to be sort for other countries?
BTW: Solar power works on cloudy days as well now.
Pete
__________________
ps: Remember it's all just opinions
'71 1750 Series 2 GTV: http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/showthread.php?p=208078
Last edited by PSk; 04-20-2011 at 08:38 PM.
|
04-20-2011, 09:29 PM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Spokane, WA
Posts: 303
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSk
I don't know the answer to any of these questions. Will do likely next year.
Well I won't have a back-up generator in my backyard. You know we can actually survive without power for a couple of days. We don't immediately die . We've had to in the past when storms, or excessive heat, have caused power outages. |
Obviously in Australia you have a much better environment for solar but I'm still skeptical that you could rely solely on solar to provide enough electricity on a daily basis without a major investment.
You state that others in the are actually selling back excess energy to the local utility - that means they also draw from the grid when they make enough to meet their demand. As you noted you won't have a back-up generator. Does this mean you'll also be connected to the grid as well? If so, that's cheating!
__________________
- Craig
'78 Sport Sedan, '87 Milano Verde, '09 Toyota Land Cruiser, & '13 VW Golf R
|
04-21-2011, 07:36 AM
|
|
Director BC Chapter SNO
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, B C
Posts: 4,414
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicola
Huh? What?
(and isn't "hippy" spelled with an "i" and an "e" ?)
I do remember 'Satisfaction' for the first time....upstate NY, just before the .... shoot, I can't remember what came after that.... |
Must be Canadian spelling-eh?
__________________
Bob
1962 Giulietta Spider: Grafite Grigio/Red Interior, "Tuned" 2L.
1963 101.12 Giulia Sprint: Dark Blue ,"Tuned" 2 L. Restoration soon to be completed.
1967 Giulia Super: Red/Black Interior,"Tuned" 1750. Added in May 2013.
|
04-25-2011, 11:37 PM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 6,281
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by sptsdn
Obviously in Australia you have a much better environment for solar but I'm still skeptical that you could rely solely on solar to provide enough electricity on a daily basis without a major investment.
You state that others in the are actually selling back excess energy to the local utility - that means they also draw from the grid when they make enough to meet their demand. As you noted you won't have a back-up generator. Does this mean you'll also be connected to the grid as well? If so, that's cheating! |
Not really because the more we generate ourselves the less our coal power stations have too, and thus they can be down sized and we all make less pollution.
That is the goal ... but in hindsight I've contradicted my earlier comments about getting rid of power distribution lines  . But I do believe in 20 years there will be lots of houses in Australia that will not need the grid, and I also believe that they will not need generators because it is unlikely that we would not have enough power for periods longer than a couple of days.
Pete
__________________
ps: Remember it's all just opinions
'71 1750 Series 2 GTV: http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/showthread.php?p=208078
Last edited by PSk; 04-26-2011 at 04:34 PM.
|
04-27-2011, 09:30 AM
|
|
Director BC Chapter SNO
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, B C
Posts: 4,414
|
|
|
Interesting Article
__________________
Bob
1962 Giulietta Spider: Grafite Grigio/Red Interior, "Tuned" 2L.
1963 101.12 Giulia Sprint: Dark Blue ,"Tuned" 2 L. Restoration soon to be completed.
1967 Giulia Super: Red/Black Interior,"Tuned" 1750. Added in May 2013.
|
04-27-2011, 04:21 PM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 6,281
|
|
|
The extremely simple solution to this supposed CO2 issue is trees. All we need to do is plant a sh!t load of trees.
Makes perfect sense to me that we have upset the balance because we keep removing forests to allow for the ever expanding human race ... thus naturally we now have millions and millions less trees than we should have to maintain the right balance.
Basically we can never have too many trees ... so plant up. Countries like mine could plant millions of trees in barren areas. Yes there is irrigation issues, but supporting the over human population of our planet has costs.
Rather be taxed for that, than taxed for carbon.
Pete
__________________
ps: Remember it's all just opinions
'71 1750 Series 2 GTV: http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/showthread.php?p=208078
|
04-27-2011, 04:32 PM
|
|
Alfa Romeo 4c Worshiper!
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Alfa World, USA
Posts: 3,151
|
|
|
I love trees, but they are not going to provide power when fossil fuels get more expensive.
(I am NOT talking about "get more expensive" as in taxed - I am talking about "get more expensive" as in: a non-renewable resource will grow in scarcity as it is used up, in combination with greater demand as population increases.)
So I would rather get taxed for funds to build non-fossil fuel power generation infrastructure.
Does anyone agree? If not, why not?
|
04-30-2011, 04:55 AM
|
|
Registered User
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: FL/S. Cal
Posts: 3,102
|
|
|
I changed my mind: Solar and wind and electric cars (batteries) can work - when gas hits about $8 per gallon.
__________________
87 spider veloce
|
| Thread Tools |
|
|
| Display Modes |
 Linear Mode
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
|
