05-14-2011, 06:00 PM
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Join Date: May 2011
Location: Chicago, IL - USA
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 Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Williams
I got that part. Some people were asking about the quality of the restoration if they'd win, having shelled out $200.
As for the $40,000 up front, how about I volunteer to hold the money for them? Sounds fair to me.  |
An legitimate escrow service will hold the money till the raffle is drawn and a winner is determined.
If you run one of them Gary, please let me know. We'll be happy to procure your services if it makes everyone in the Alfa community feel safer.
Regards,
Imran
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05-14-2011, 06:02 PM
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Location: Chicago, IL - USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSk
Sorry this is a scam IMHO, lets discuss. - First of all this is the least desirable of the GTV series, thus why would a restoration firm pick this model to restore if they want to advertise their expertise?
- It also should not need much restoration work because it is the youngest possible model of the series ... so where did the $40,000 quote come from? And yes I am well aware of the complexity involved in restoring these cars and have previously made the comment that all would need floors, rockers, etc. but Daron has shown us that it is possible to find young cars that are less damaged.
- How can we honestly prove that a mate of this firm does not want a GTV2000 and can't afford to have it restored and thus they have come up with this scheme to pay for it's restoration and guess what he just happens to win the "sweepstake"?. That is why we need the police involved to make it correct.
- Once the police are involved it has to be registered and I believe there are costs ... but not sure, but somebody has to pay for the polices time.
- And if this company is really trying to demonstrate its abilities it absolutely should be aiming for as close as possible 100 point restoration ... it is NOT impossible to restore these cars to that level. Many people have done so and again a 1974 GTV probably does not even need its rocker and floor panels replaced.
I used to work with a guy that raffled his car off because he could not sell it, this is no better unless the legal people are involved and I respectively submit that nobody should fork out any money until this is done properly.
Note other restoration firms don't do this, they simply restore a customers car that the customer pays for, and then use that car on their site to promote their business OR if they want to restore something different THEY fund it and sell the car at the end. Now if this firm had bought a stepnose, or earlier GTV (series 1 1750 maybe?) then they would be able to restore it and sell for enough to cover their costs ... but not a 1974 GTV.
Pete |
These types of speculative and skeptical comments are so disappointing. I am going to address these below.
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05-14-2011, 06:28 PM
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Registered User
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Join Date: May 2011
Location: Chicago, IL - USA
Posts: 42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PSk
Sorry this is a scam IMHO, lets discuss.
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We have published our address, links to our Yelp and BimmerShop reviews, pictures of our most recent BMW restorations. We have asked AlfaBB members in Chicago area to come visit our shop. We have reached out to AROC board member and Admin for AlfaBB for determining how to set this up, if at all possible in the most legal, transparent and honest manner.
You on the other hand have not done any due diligance, yet you believe that this is a scam.
Disappointing to say the least.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSk
[*]First of all this is the least desirable of the GTV series, thus why would a restoration firm pick this model to restore if they want to advertise their expertise?
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Our expertise are in engine, transmission restoration, body work and paint, interior restoration. Regardless of how much or how less desirable a car is, the labor cost does not significantly wary. It takes the same amount of time to cut and weld floors on a 1974 GTV 2000 as it takes for a 1966 Stepnose.
Why we picked a 1974 GTV. Because we found one that we believe is a great candidate for restoration. Thats all. There isn't really any gimmick going on here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSk
[*]It also should not need much restoration work because it is the youngest possible model of the series ... so where did the $40,000 quote come from? And yes I am well aware of the complexity involved in restoring these cars and have previously made the comment that all would need floors, rockers, etc. but Daron has shown us that it is possible to find young cars that are less damaged.
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You have not even inspected the car. We have parted it out, itemized the parts it needs and estimated the cost of restoration. If we proceed with the raffle, we will publish the detailed specifications of the restoration to be completely transparent. If you think you can restore to those specs and the quality that we will deliver, for less than $40,000, please send us a contract and we will happy to sign you up for your restoration services.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSk
[*]How can we honestly prove that a mate of this firm does not want a GTV2000 and can't afford to have it restored and thus they have come up with this scheme to pay for it's restoration and guess what he just happens to win the "sweepstake"?. That is why we need the police involved to make it correct.
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We have a law firms services procured already to help us formulate the legal terms and procedures of the raffle sorted out. If we proceed, we will probably do so through the AROC channel. If it will make everyone more comfortable, to get the Police involved as well, we will be more than happy to provide any assistance they need from us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSk
[*]Once the police are involved it has to be registered and I believe there are costs ... but not sure, but somebody has to pay for the polices time.
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We are not picking up the cost of Police services. Just so everyone is aligned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSk
[*]And if this company is really trying to demonstrate its abilities it absolutely should be aiming for as close as possible 100 point restoration ... it is NOT impossible to restore these cars to that level. Many people have done so and again a 1974 GTV probably does not even need its rocker and floor panels replaced.
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Yes, it is not impossible to restore to 100 point specification, but as I mentioned on my previous posts it does not make sense for a 1974 GTV 2000 unless someone is willing to pay for it. There is such a things as "law of deminishing returns".
The car will be restored to high level of quality that can easily earn it 85+ points.
We are a business and need to balance "desirability of model" with the "quality of restoration" it deserves to make financial sense out of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSk
I used to work with a guy that raffled his car off because he could not sell it, this is no better unless the legal people are involved and I respectively submit that nobody should fork out any money until this is done properly.
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Could not agree more. Legal is involved. As for the raffle, that is exactly the point. We will restore it if there is a demand otherwise we will part it out. Period!
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSk
Note other restoration firms don't do this, they simply restore a customers car that the customer pays for, and then use that car on their site to promote their business OR if they want to restore something different THEY fund it and sell the car at the end. Now if this firm had bought a stepnose, or earlier GTV (series 1 1750 maybe?) then they would be able to restore it and sell for enough to cover their costs ... but not a 1974 GTV.
Pete
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Yes! You got it. That is exactly the point. We will only restore it if it makes financial sense. A raffle is setup to make it interesting for the alfa community while we recoup our cost and earn a profit. There is nothing wrong with that.
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05-14-2011, 06:34 PM
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Join Date: May 2011
Location: Chicago, IL - USA
Posts: 42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Williams
I'm adding myself to the list of curious thread subscribers.
A complete GTV in awful condition for $200 is likely to be a good deal, so how can one that's imperfectly restored be a losing proposition?
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Gary, I think you hit the hammer on the nail. Everyone knows that its a great proposition but people seem to be skeptical.
Perhaps some BB members in Chicago area should make a trip to our shop and report back.
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05-14-2011, 06:41 PM
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Director AR Chapter SNO
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Booneville, AR
Posts: 2,165
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If AROC buys into this caper-which isn't going to happen, I'll not renew my membership.
This is in the mystic varsity!
__________________
Jeff Lang
'85 GTV6 3L, '89 Milano Gold, '91 164L, '73 GTV
'91 164L Parts Car, '89 Spider Parts car
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05-14-2011, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WizardWerks
Lets keep ourselves honest here folks. Its is a raffle at the end of the day. Not all lose "a bunch". Worst case, 199 people lose $200 each. If there are 400 people, then 399 lose $100 each. If there are 800 people, then 799 lose $50 each....
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I'm looking at the collective BB. One guy - possibly not even a member - spends $200, and wins a car worth about $15,000 - $22,000 (based on real market values), for which this group of strangers collected $40,000.
One guy spends $200, and wins a car and a tax bill of $4,000 (market valued) to $8,000 (lottery cost), depending on how good your tax attorney is; the rest of us loose $39,800.
A bunch of people loose nearly $40,000 on a slim chance for a car worth half that. If there is the slimmest hint of a favored winner, then EVERYBODY looses.
Even these guys proposing this have never tried this "scam". They do commercial restorations for non-profits that pay full bill, who then hold a true raffle. The builder doing this is likely violating a few dozen laws, at best ignorantly.
Additionally, the fact that they did not choose a car worth investing $40,000 in - a GTA (or a repro), a Stepnose, or a Duetto at the very best means they do NOT know much about Alfas.
Go bid on a Mac iPad for $ 26 on Quibids. The only winners there are the VC's waiting to bail out on the IPO.
Robert
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05-14-2011, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WizardWerks
...You on the other hand have not done any due diligance, yet you believe that this is a scam.
Disappointing to say the least.
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What arrogance! #@*#&^%$*@#*&^@#&%^!!!!!
YOU brought this up. Cold, with no connection to the Alfa community, and you are affronted that a very close knit bunch is skeptical of a total stranger that wants a LOT of our money? Get real!
We don't need to check you out; you need to prove yourselves to us. The Alfa community has a handful of very well respected builders that we all have carefully validated, and that we all support, because THEY need and far better DESERVE our business.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WizardWerks
...We have a law firms services procured already to help us formulate the legal terms and procedures of the raffle sorted out. If we proceed, we will probably do so through the AROC channel. If it will make everyone more comfortable, to get the Police involved as well, we will be more than happy to provide any assistance they need from us.
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There are a lot of things you will need to do to make some of us comfortable. You have not responded to any of them yet with anything hard or real. And that's "..law firm's services.." You missed the apostrophe possessive.
You should know that a LOT of Alfisti are not best of friends with AROC. AROSC - one of the largest Alfa groups - split with them, oh, a decade ago....
Quote:
Originally Posted by WizardWerks
..We are not picking up the cost of Police services. Just so everyone is aligned.
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How much is the current Chicago bribe? [Ta-da thump!]
Quote:
Originally Posted by WizardWerks
..The car will be restored to high level of quality that can easily earn it 85+ points.
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Wow! you already are shooting high. About step-ladder high. Don't get a nose bleed way up there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WizardWerks
..We are a business and need to balance "desirability of model" with the "quality of restoration" it deserves to make financial sense out of it.
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I'm glad to see that your focus on yourselves is so crystal clear. We do not need you, you may need us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WizardWerks
...Could not agree more. Legal is involved. As for the raffle, that is exactly the point.
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You obviously dreamed this up without any understanding of the legal issues. I recommend you don't spend too much on legal fees. Nobody is going to make a commitment to your plan until you put a much better foundation under this. Starting so weakly makes me suspect that you will bail when you find out how hard this is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WizardWerks
We will restore it if there is a demand otherwise we will part it out. Period!
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Now that's probably what the car is worth. I do love being threatened by bull-headed used car salesmen. Been in the business; this step is right out of the training manual - hard sell time. Proper response of the buyer - WALK OUT THE DOOR. IF they are real, they will chase after you, and then start to listen. Do you hear the sounds of footsteps fading........
Quote:
Originally Posted by WizardWerks
...Yes! You got it. That is exactly the point. We will only restore it if it makes financial sense.
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For you. You definitely do not care much about this quirky and VERY dedicated community. Try again. Get the rules right first. Choose a car worth the risks. Demonstrate that you know something about Alfas.
Even better - since you claim so much heritage with the BMW community, go do this for them first. Then come back and tell us how well that worked out.
Robert
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05-14-2011, 08:17 PM
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Just a thought for the BB community. If there is not a long prison sentence that goes well with this idea, we might do this another way.
The guys at Vintage Customs, Alfaholics, Wes Ingram, Anthony's in Northridge (Italcar), APE, IAP, Centerline, etc. are well respected in the Alfa community. We should get them to do the work, on a "raffle" that is sponsored by the BB or other Alfa community.
This way the guys that we depend on staying in business get support, and someone who "belongs" gets a great car. Something like the HGTV annual home give-away.
We could have a real BB donnybrook just deciding on what car, and what work, and what parts, and.....
Robert
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05-14-2011, 08:23 PM
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Location: Dexter, Michigan USA
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Sweepstakes: Fully Restored Alfa GTV 2000
A couple of comments, without taking sides:
IINM, 1974 is the most desirable year GTV to own so it would make sense to me why this particular year was picked.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by 60sRacer
You should know that a LOT of Alfisti are not best of friends with AROC. AROSC - one of the largest Alfa groups - split with them, oh, a decade ago....
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__________________
Cheryl
(Not an authority nor SME
on anything, just PATSYF)
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05-14-2011, 08:42 PM
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Thanks Cheryl. I'm not big on the history. I humbly stand corrected.
Again. Sigh...
As to GTV's, I favor any of the originally-carbed cars starting with the GTA, but that should be a racer, which is just terrible on the street! After that, I like the single headlight step noses... But as I said, we could have quite an in-house battle just picking the right car......
Robert
Last edited by 60sRacer; 05-14-2011 at 08:45 PM.
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05-14-2011, 09:05 PM
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Thanks to Robert, I think this thread has just got out of control. I don't want to and neither do I have time to get into a p*ss*ng match with community members.
We are a long standing legitimate business and take pride in our, honesty, transparency, work quality and customer service excellence. Our community of dedicated repeat customers speak on our behalf, so I don't need to spend any more time on this forum to prove ourselves to anyone.
We came up with an innovative idea and proposed it to the Alfa community to see if there was any interest; (Please see my first post on this thread). I think it has been clearly established by now that AlfaBB has no interested in it.
I think we can all move on from here.
Admins; please close out this thread. Its past its shelf life.
Thank you.
Imran
Wizard Werks
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05-14-2011, 10:12 PM
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I found 6 pages on Google all from Wizard Werks, about Wizard Werks. Way over-the-top self promoter.
Heavily BMW. A bit of other. Nothing Alfa. Nothing at Chicago Alfa Romeo Club about them.
Just a heavy hustler auto body shop self promoting.
I wonder where the '74 Alfa came from? I bet there's a backstory. Someone swapped an old car in trade for some BMW repair?
Bye guys. It wasn't even a good half-thought idea.
It was half-thought.
R
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05-15-2011, 02:45 AM
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Join Date: May 2003
Location: Sydney Australia
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Cheryl,
While I respect your history and knowledge of Alfa Romeos in general, I cannot understand your comment that a 1974 2000 is the best GTV ... ?
You go against every single magazine on classic cars that has ever done an article on the series, and every single price guide and also common knowledge that the last model of a series is always not the best because the purity has been lost. That is why for example the Series 1 Jaguar E-type is now considered the best, ie. its the first and thus the most purer ideal of what the designers were trying to produce.
Even a 2000 GTV is way down on the list of most GTV lovers. Yes they have more torque but by the time the 2000 came out the design was very long in the tooth and in Alfas attempt to modernise a too old design it lost some of the magic.
Anyway I'm pretty sure the car was not chosen for any reason like that, just happen to come along I think .
WizardWerks,
Thank you for your answer but I have to say regarding your comment that the Alfabb members are not interested and thus you are leaving ... what the heck did you expect!!!, honestly?
You came on here and proposed an illegal raffle (yes it is illegal to run a raffle without the legalities and right departments informed) with so many holes in your suggestion. BTW: I'm 43 years old, and most of the members on here are mature enthusiats that hold professional jobs and thus you should have started with the proper assurances, like raffle registration number that shows us straight away that this is not illegal.
Anyway, don't cut the car up, just sell it to somebody that actually likes these cars. You probably got it for only a few hundred dollars, I'm sure you will get most of it back ... otherwise take a punt and restore it and sell it for market value (which will be way less than $40,000 BTW), but if you show the process on this site you might gain some business and thus an investment into your future that YOU fund, instead of us .
Raffles are best left to charities ... makes businesses look desperate and dodgy if they get involved, so IMHO I'd drop the concept. The only way you will not look so dodgy is if the raffle was actually run by the AROC and the profits went to them, and you were simply the company doing the work for THEM.
Best
Pete
__________________
ps: Remember it's all just opinions
'71 1750 Series 2 GTV: http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/showthread.php?p=208078
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05-15-2011, 07:35 AM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: East Texas
Posts: 3,328
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Having looked at the photos I can only hope your restoration skills are better than your photographic skills. I could only see four photos which really didn't tell me enough to shell out 200 bucks. I also have a real problem with the threat of the crusher. If you indeed are serious and if it's such a good canidate for restoration you are basically saying you are the only one who gets a chance to restore a good condition car. That is bs. If you don't get your cash the right thing to do would be to resell it to someone who really does care and save the car. So let's assume for now that you do have a conscience and you do get your cash up front will the car have aircon?
__________________
currently
74 GTV restored daily driver
74 Spider restored
the ones that got away:
1959 750 series Giulietta Spider Veloce
1962 Giulietta Spider normale
1965 Giulia Sprint normale
1972 GTV
1974 GTV
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05-15-2011, 09:34 PM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1,784
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There's just too many things about "Wizard Werks" that don't add up. After a bit of investigating, here's my findings:
1. Wizard Werks' address of 1210 W. Lake St., Chicago - Google Street View shows a shop called R&J Auto Repair at that location. I called R&J and was told they moved from that location 8 months ago and that another shop took their place. So, Wizard Werks must have moved from a different location.
2. Found Wizard Werks' old location on this thread dated Feb. 2010. At that location, 540 W. Grenshaw, Chicago, Google Street View shows a business called Taxi Works.
3. The background in the photos of the GTV in the first entry is not at either location.
4. At an Audi site they advertise themselves as having "over 15 years of experience" but their home page advertises "over 25 years of experience". Which is it?
5. Are the photos on their site actually from their facility? Note the Euro plate on the car that's on the lift.
6. Aggressive local advertising. Good shops don't need this.
7. Worst of all is the sleazy self promotion by pretending to be a customer. The first clip is from post #61 above (note the name). The second clip is from this site.
8. Last, on a local BMW forum, someone is asking for suggestions for a local shop. Wizard Werks is never mentioned but chimes in twice, only to be completely ignored. How's that for a reputation!
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