Alfa Romeo Forums banner

Well, I believe my engine is shot

8K views 48 replies 15 participants last post by  John533i 
#1 ·
:crying2:

So yesterday I drove for 40mins to see a friend and to check if changing out the cold start valve changed anything; I've been suspecting that it was the cause of an overly rich condition and and when I got to my destination 45 mins away, the idle was really bad. On the way back home I saw smoke in the rear view and could smell oil burning. Not good! I also saw my oil pressure dip.

I made it home and found the dipstick had popped up, and oil all over that side of the engine and on the hood. I researched this on the BB and found that sometimes the OVS can be the problem. I just pulled it, and it wasn't clogged. I had cleaned it good in 2015...but the restrictor in the ovs line to the plastic intake runner was ****ed in the line. Something was pressurizing the crank case. Mood is darkening.

Compression was taken a few weeks ago, and I'm 150-160-145-150 across, but I had forgotten to hold the throttle open, so I thought I'd do another compression test. The car started right up but still ran like crap, not the smooth idle I had a few days ago. I warmed it up until it died on its own. :( Also, I saw puffs of vapor coming out of the dipstick tube when pulling the dipstick. I pulled the oil cap and saw lots more vapor puffing out, and while revving I could feel a nice breeze coming out of the oil fill. Mood darkening further.

I pulled the plugs, and here's how they look.



So, I do my compression with throttle open and get 190-180-40-175. Crap. I then pour a little oil in #3 and #3 comes up to 175psi. Note that in Sept. 2015 I had 200, 205-160-193 just after the new head gasket started leaking compression into the cooling system between 3 and 4....so #3 has been an issue for a while.

So, sounds like my engine is shot, eh? Rings in #3? I put fresh plugs in and that didn't help anything as far as smooth running. This sucks...
 
See less See more
1
#2 ·
Something is certainly up with #3 but based on the above, I wouldn't say the engine is "shot". Solutions range from replacing only the critical parts to finding a good, used engine to some variation of a full rebuild.
 
#13 ·
What ever caused the pressure in the crank case pull the head to see what's wrong in there.
Normally cracked rings will pressure the crank case. If the head gasket is blown you'll have water in the oil and/or oil in the water. Do you have any idea what the mileage of the engine have since a main repair?
Good luck finding the cause and repairing the engine.
 
#4 · (Edited)
\ I saw puffs of vapor coming out of the dipstick tube when pulling the dipstick. I pulled the oil cap and saw lots more vapor puffing out
Some smoke coming out of the dipstick tube / oil filler cap is not uncommon on a worn engine; that alone doesn't say "rebuild time".

Rings in #3?
I like David Rishar's theory of a bad head gasket better. Yes, adding oil to a cylinder with bad rings usually brings up the compression reading. But generally, all four sets of rings will wear evenly, while your compression readings are quite un-even. You spoke of running too rich; that will cause rings to wear out prematurely, as the cylinder walls lose lubrication due to excess gas washing it off. So unless only cylinder #3 was running rich, rings wouldn't be my first suspect.
 
#7 ·
Buy, borrow or steal a leak down tester. Basically, you position the cylinder being tested at TDC with the valves closed then apply air pressure and measure how well the cylinder will hold the pressure. The best part is that while pressurized you can listen for the sound of escaping air - in an adjacent cylinder, out the intake or exhaust, from the sump, etc. This will help pinpoint the weakness before you take anything apart (often the head gasket will be damaged when you pull the head so you may not know if that was the problem or not).
 
#10 ·
Same advice for most engines of my past; I agree. I want to rent a leak down tester though, or pick one up from Harbor Fright :wink2: It is strange how after I put oil in the cylinder, it held pressure until I released it.

If #3 is dead due to rings, I guess I'll wrestle with the plan of just replacing that liner, and maybe hone the others if possible and put in new rings on all, or buy all new pistons if possible and up the compression.
 
#11 · (Edited)
#16 ·
The engine was warmed up for maybe 3mins. The oil pressure dropping was the when it starting escaping from the dipstick, most likely. It usually runs at 55 in the middle while driving. I was in 4th gear, going up a hill at about 70 with traffic. The smoke I saw in the rear view was, I thought, from oil on the manifold burning.

I'll read the faq...
 
#15 · (Edited)
Sounds like you have mixed data. ..especially confusing is the low oil pressure.. Are you sure or was it always like that and you just noticed it?

Causes and observations:

1) Pressurized oil sump.. caused by restriction in the road draft tube or other ventilation for the motor if too modern for the tube...or from a rodent or wasp nest ( seen it happen) or broken piston rings usually from over revving and worn piston lands out of spec which vibrates the rings and cracks them..you will see smoke chugging from the oil cap and/ or dip stick tube and exhaust.. known as "blow by" .. If it is only one piston the smoke will chug out like e choo choo train as it is 1 out of 4 firing. Worn out pistons or ill-fitted rings happen but usually don't happen in the course of 40 minutes unless you caused the rings to break...vroom vroom cold. Been there done that. 8000RPM was fun for a very short while for me. Pistons ring clearances were .020" instead of .002"... silly mechanic couldn't read a mike or a feeler gage. not me. Engine sumps need t be vented. They are not hermetically sealed.

2. Head gasket--highly unlikely from what you said.. They hardly blow on the oil side of the gasket unless it is the rear of #4 or the front of #1.

3. None of the above have anything to do with lost oil pressure unless you have a huge blow out in one of the 6 small oil passages where the little O-rings are in the gasket. If that happened, the oil would be blowing out of the gasket on the outside of the engine or somehow migrating into the cooling system turning your coolant to mayonnaise and that would NOT pressurize the sump.

4. I vote for a blockage or broken piston ring or both and an over reaction to the pressure reading when terror strikes. Car should get you to where you are going except 25% less power.
 
#17 ·
BTW, on the day this happened and before I pulled the plugs, I did an oil change after I cleaned up my engine. I hated seeing that much oil around the engine bay! anyway, my oil pressure cold is normal now.

I have a new magnetic drain plug from the last oil change, last Nov. It had gray, magnetized sludge around it, which I took to be fine metal.

It's been using oil since I bought it; about a half a quart every 2 months with mostly weekend driving, but I do get close to redline when I drive it at times. It ain't a 'cruizin spider for once a month car shows lol. My oil is always changed on time.

I did look in the radiator for oil in the water, but didn't see anything strange. Nor did I see any milkshake when I changed the oil on the day of the incident.

If I just did a ring job on #3, I would of course get a new liner and have a machine shop machine it to the piston before installing the rings and endgapping them. I'm really leaning towards having someone do this for me locally...
 
#18 ·
If you do need repairs that deep in the engine and you're going to pay someone to do it you should seriously consider an entire engine rebuild. It's a LOT of labor to pull, disassemble, reassemble and reinstall an engine - which is essentially what you're talking about. There was that one thread about doing it without pulling the motor but I'm not sure that really saves anything - what gets eaten up in time due to limited access probably exceeds the time it takes to R&R the motor. It wouldn't make a big difference in time doing just one cylinder or all 4.

What I'm trying to say (poorly) is that labor costs on this job is going to far exceed parts costs. Might as well do everything. It's silly to invest all of the labor costs and still have an old worn engine afterword. Plus, if I were a Pro I don't think I'd want to just fix one piston on an old engine only for the customer to come back dissatisfied that there is something else wrong with his motor - something I didn't fix because he didn't want me to. I think you'll have a hard time finding someone to do that.
 
#19 ·
Mileage and history of the car usually play a significant role in your next step. While it is possible, like at a race track, to pull the offending cylinder(s) and replace them by dropping the pan and pulling the head it really sounds like a complete overhaul is in your future. Doing the former is a band-aid at best and may not solve anything.

Lastly, 3 minutes does not constitute a warm up. At least wait until the temp gauge needle moves. Then drive the first 3 or 4 miles between 2500 and 3500 R's.

And finally... oil pressure is not effected by anything associated with the dip stick tube.
 
#20 ·
The liner must be clamped in a correct jig in order to be bored correctly otherwise it will not be round when you torque down the head. I know that Alfar7 has one because we used it to bore my liners to 85 mm. In your case you probably just need to hone it, taking off just enough metal to eliminate the step at the top of the bore. Your pressures suggest that your liners are in pretty good condition.
 
#21 ·
Yeah, I agree with you guys, for the most part. I've often wondered if someone has already re-built this engine in the past due to the outstanding compression, and put in Motronic pistons already.

I do like the peace of mind of having the rest of the engine taken care of, also. Spruell I see sells great kits, for full engine. I've had the head worked on, and hopefully that isn't a part of the problem- then I can pick up a bottom end kit with chains, rod and main bearings, etc for $775.

Labor, like you said, will cost me. I'm waiting to hear back from a guy that has worked on these engines, Frank DeSilva. I might also contact a local shop.

Regarding oil pressure, I would think as oil escapes the engine, one would be able to see it on the pressure gauge? Looking at the gauge markings from 0, it went from 57 to between the 2nd and 3rd tick marks. Since I always run around 57 at speed, and cold start, I took notice.
 
#22 ·
#24 ·
I built a strong (169 HP) motor using a used short block from an '85 that I bought from a guy on the ABB for $100. The bearings and journals all looked good so I checked them with plastigauge and reused them. My oil pressure was excellent and remained that way until the crankshaft was damaged when the flywheel bolts sheared. Unless you really want to spend on new bearings, you should check the current ones as they may be fine.
 
#25 ·
Guys, this is depressing. The parts for our engines, when compared to Porsche and BMW, are wonderfully priced. The labor to have someone take care of business though is crazy! I've been quoted 36-45hrs, both of those were at $110/hr. The latter was a machine shop that I'd deliver the engine to after I removed it; the former is for a shop to remove it, rebuild it and install it.

Now, I realize that there are some unknowns, only to be solved on disassembly. Best case- #3 liner can be honed, or if I can find a new one, just #3 liner replaced. If Ring landings are all OK, just new rings and machine shop fees for honing.Crank bearings, I think have be developing issues. It seems to me that there's some noise, that will disappear when oil is changed. Who knows; Head was re-done in 2015 with new intake seals, lapped valves, no new guides.

I'm rambling, yeah. I'm not looking forward to pulling this thing!
 
#26 · (Edited)
How much does it cost to rebuild a Porsche engine?

edit: sorry, didn't mean that to be so snarky (well I did but only because I was in a bad mood). I know you're hurting here. But I have a pretty good idea how much it costs to rebuild a Porsche engine (a shedload of cash!). Around 40 hours at $110/hour sounds like a pretty standard estimate to me - a Porsche engine is going to take just as long and labor will be at LEAST as expensive.

That's what I was saying earlier - it's a LOT of work and it's going to be a very large chunk of those 40 hours to do crank bearings and hone one cylinder. It's silly to pay $3000 or $4000 in labor and still have a tired old engine
 
#27 ·
Ha! I was ranting. A few years back I was looking at getting a Boxter, and was put off by the IMS bearing issue and it's possibility of rebuilding the engine. $7K-9K was a common cost thrown out there for it due the the motor's complexity, and well...it's Porsche. I don't expect that from a guy who builds Alfa engines all the time! Plus, one guy quoted me 35hrs, and that was including pulling and installing the engine. I kind of think they don't want the business, so they pull a high number out of their patootie.

I might attempt this myself. If I can get a used engine, I can either pull it apart to figure things out, then start sending parts to the machine shop, or take the engine in to someone and have them do it. Most likely just the bottom end. Time to read some rebuild threads.
 
#31 ·
If you are at all motivated, I think doing it yourself is a very good plan. I just got my '88 Spider back together, for the second time, six weeks ago. There are very few differences (details) between an L-Jet motor and one from an earlier car. If you need clarification on something, just ask.
 
#34 ·
I think I just read your thread in the Engine repair section- I thought you had an older classic engine, for some reason? Years ago when I rebuild another brand engine, I was disappointed at the compression ratio afterwords. I had no mathematical reason to think this way, but I figured that the CR would be around 180psi due to a fresh build with 9.1:1 pistons, vs 8.8:1 stock CR. I had 155psi or so. I always wondered what I did wrong, but in retrospect maybe it was the mild sport cam. That motor still lives on in a local kid's rally cross car and he flogs it like an idiot, and I've learned not to care. Much. LOL! Maybe I can replicate that reliable motor...
 
#33 ·
Thanks, fellow gear heads! So, today I messaged a local Alfa guru who sells a lot of great stuff on here, and he has a couple of mid 80's VVT engines, of unknown condition. If the price is right, I can pick one up, strip it at my leisure, farm out the machine work and build it over the summer. Then pop in the fresh engine when ready...It's kind of hard for me to think about doing this because the engine in the car is so clean as it is, and any other motor is going to be an oil caked lump.

Decisions, decisions...thanks for the advice, guys. This helps :)
 
#35 ·
The really great thing is the engine you bring home will be out of the car and easy to clean, you can do what i did and put it in the laundry tub and really impress the wife.
:surprise: :laugh2: >:)
 

Attachments

#40 ·
Yeah, I don't intend to get it back on the road 'ASAP' at all. I have another fun car that needs attention and is taking up the other half of the garage that I really need to make progress on first. The Alfa will have to wait a bit.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top