|Topic Review (Newest First)|
|01-06-2016 11:00 AM|
|2000 touring sp||
Danke sehr Tim Buttkus.
I hace changed it to04458
|01-05-2016 05:53 AM|
Dear Touring 2000 Sp, the first picture is not 2348. It never had a double bubble roof, and at the time and subsequently was never registered in Italy. I know the picture and credit is from Gino"s book, but…. I think we clarified this already earlier here. T
he second Photo is indeed 02348 when still with Edgar Berney. I have 2 other photos from this event, but not this particular one. Thanks for posting !!! BR Tim
|01-04-2016 08:33 AM|
|2000 touring sp||
Thank you Tim Buttkus.
I would expect that you have all available picture of the Berney car.
I put in 2 pictures of the car , that I have not seen anywhere else.
One from TdF forumauto_P1010004_2 #32 Giulietta SVZ sn 04458 Taga Florio driven by Natella-Fiordelisi probably 1960
One from Rally de la Lavande 1959 Berney- Dethurens
|01-03-2016 04:23 PM|
Originally Posted by martinue View Post
|01-03-2016 04:02 PM|
Originally Posted by 2000 touring sp View Post
|12-30-2015 09:50 AM|
|2000 touring sp||
Hello to you all. And a happy new year to everybody who have contributed to this wonderful and informative tread. And now has passed its 9 years anniversary . And still been able to give new information’s to solve unanswered questions.
In Martins post 25 on page 2. He informed that SVZ # 08780 was sold to Richard Ballantine in the States.
Is this Richard the same Richard as divotandtralee referred to ??????? on post 641 page 43.
On page 2 post 25 Matin has a unknown SVZ driven by Pilette with registration number B9844 Belgian registration .
If I remember correctly. Martin raised a question or a wish. Could the Belgian SVZ #08780 be the same car as the one with registration B9844
On post 639 Ti Sup posted 2 beautiful an informative pictures and additional information’s
“more information’s about the Belgian SVZ ; information from the nephew of the first owner Jacques Croisier.”
Giulietta Sprint registrations number T5081
The SVZ wit registration number B9844
I think that we by these pictures have the connection to the unknown car in post 25
I have seen a picture of the Crosier SVZ car with the registration T5081, so the connection to the Giulietta Sprint pictured is real
|11-26-2015 01:34 PM|
19610716 Rallye delle Dolomiti:
Looking from this angle, the car seems to match the colour pic.
|11-26-2015 01:29 PM|
The Jacques Croisier Zagato was co-owned by André Lieckens, according to Georges Hacquin.
After Croisier died in 1960, Lieckens wanted to get rid of the car.
Georges Hacquin acquired it in 1961 from him.
Hacquin says in his book: "I couldn't resist it; a real GT, all aluminum and a Conrero engine."
There was only one problem: the car wasn't supported by Arobel (belgian importer)
He made an agreement with Jacky Beeckmans, garage owner in Anderlecht.
He gave the car a revision on his costs, in exchange of being George's co driver in rallies.
19610319 STUTTGART-LYON-CHARBO: #32 SVZ HACQUIN-BEECKMANS / 33oa - 3 in class < 1300 GT
19610416 COUPES DE BRUXELLES: #6F SVZ HACQUIN / 8oa - 5 in class < 1300 GT
19610609 COUPES BENELUX - ZANDVOORT: #QM SVZ HACQUIN / 1 in class < 1300 GT
After this race Georges Hacquin sold the car to a young pilot named Lejeune (no first name) from Liège/Luik
Is this the same car as the colour picture above? Lights and Scudetto seem diff'rent to me. Maybe it's just an optical illusion...?
|11-25-2015 04:15 PM|
more informations about the belgian SVZ ; informations from the nephew of the first owner Jacques Croisier.
A letter from the mechanic of Jacques Croisier where he say that he drove the car to Zagato factory to have the new body. Exact date unknow but end of 1958 or at the beginning of 1959 (for the little history, he crashed the car in the Alps during the outward journey with little damages on the body)
Thus, the VIN of this SVZ is unknow but he's not in the list of the 18 or 19 VIN. It's sure that is not VIN 02028 (Becucci' car) as said in a previous post.
Here's a picture of the car with his Bertone body. Who is that colour ? Blu ?
And a color picture of the car with Zagato body
|09-11-2015 07:35 PM|
Hi does any body know who ownes a convetable conrero le mans in Japan? As i would like to re unite Michelotti's design drawings with the car!
Many Thanks Clive
|08-19-2015 05:09 AM|
|2000 touring sp||
Thanks for you replay.
John. The identity of the Edgar Berney car , is in my opinion fully clear. After the talk Tim Buttkus had with Theo Geither. Who ran the 04348 SVZ. He brought it on 15 June 1960. In this talk Theo Geither confirms that he brought the 04348 from Edgar Berney. So unless Edgar Berney run 2 SVZ at the same time . The question on chassis number is fully answered..
For me is the interest what happen before Edgar Berney acquired the SVZ 04348. We know that it went to CH as a standard SV. It was returned to Milan Zagato to have a new body, and there after returned to ZH . Where Berney acquired it. We dont know the dates when Berney Acquered it. He ran the car in the coppa intereuropa 1958, according Anselmi. with sttart number 45.
He i registrated for the folowing results on racingsportscars.com with Alfa Romeo
7.4.1958 3 h Pau [GT2.0] Alfa Romeo Berney ?th
21.9.1958 Avus [GT1.6] 78 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Zagato Edgar Berney Edgar Berney DNA
21.9.1958 Tour de France 137 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Veloce Zagato Berney / Gretener raced
5.10.1958 Coupes du Salon Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Veloce Zagato Edgar Berney 6th
Date Race No. Car Drivers Entrant Result
3.5.1959 GP Spa [GT] 12 Alfa Romeo Berney DNS
7.6.1959 1000 km Nürburgring 83 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Veloce Berney / Foitek Edgar Berney DNF
This is where i am. And this is the reason .That the information og Gorza and the Reims car interest me.
So in general i fully agree with what you have stated, Martin.
|08-18-2015 01:31 PM|
Nothing truly new here, but to confirm the observations of "martinue":
There is no reason to believe that 01613 was bodied by Zagato. Certainly not for Gorza.
Gorza almost certainly raced 04069 on a temporary plate on the Giro di Sicilia as the Forli plate (mentioned by "martinue") was not issued until shortly after that event.
I've not yet attempted to confirm with certainty that Berney's car was 02348. Nor have I accidently come across information to confirm this. Although the connection seems quite likely, I cannot characterize it as proven.
|08-17-2015 03:00 PM|
There is no confirmation that Gorza's earlier SVA *01613* was rebodied by Zagato.
Some short conversion times of various SVZ:
*01944* between '560429 and '560902
*02488* between '570623 and '570720 (?)
*01849* between '580228 and '580504
*04657* between '580601 and '580803
According to an earlier post of John de Boer *01613* was reregistered in April '57 at Bologna, just when he purchased *04069*.
The registration of *04069* could read FO 39731 as I meant to see on a better quality photo of the '57 Coppa Intereuropa at Monza. This might be true, because this number was issued in May '57 shortly after the Giro di Sicilia. April the 14th 1957 was the Giro di Sicilia, not the Targa Florio.
So no entry Gorza did since then in '57 was done with *01613*. Racingsportscars.com is simply wrong. *04069* was a DNF with distribtor failure in the '57 Mille Miglia. It only had got a stripe more between April and September '57, no different paint.
It is a completely different car from Edgar Berney's SVZ. I have edited the photo in post #27 of the Berney car (*02348*?), it was taken '59 at Francorchamps, and not '58 at Reims as had been written in some books.
|08-16-2015 07:47 AM|
|2000 touring sp||
hello all, ant thanks for this lovely tread, especially to Martin.
My concern is that we are mixing picture of Gorza in " #01613 and #04069 and the Rheims Car #02348.
I can simply not find head or too concerning Egidio Gorza. Simply confused.
And I hope that I am explaining in a way that every one is able to understand what I mean.
I was looking for information on the Rheims car. It was in post 27.But I started from the rear.That gives a opportune to get some new knowledge. As iicar Johns info in post 342.
Post 342 "Egidio Gorza owned the SVA *01613 from new in 1956.
Egidio Gorza purchased the SVA AR1493E*04069 in March of 1957 and it was almost certainly bodied very quickly, probably just in time for the Targa Florio "
Post No. 12 is said to be photographed at Rheims in 1958. That was all I found of comments on this car. Excuse if I have overlooked some.
Martin states in his revision in connection with the Giugno book:
Short updated history:
"#SVA/SVZ *01613/04069*: just like in his Giulietta-Targa book, Giugno states *01613* for the Egidio Gorza SVZ; 1956/1957 with Gorza (note: Giugno states there was no reg number on the car, but he had listed "FO 31763" for the 1957 Giro di Sicilia entry in his earlier Targa book); 1958-1960 with Mario Bongiasca; 1962 Herbert Wrobel had SVZ *04069*"
#Re Egidio It shuld be stated that he had 2 SV.
But did he have 2 SVZ double bubble , that question is still open, as far as my knowledge. Re Johns comment We know that Gorza double Bubble car #01613, ran the Taga Florio 14 April 1957.
But would it be possible to build an new car in Max one and a halves month???? From the 1 of Marts, if that was the buying month, till the start of Taga Florio 14 of April
In the book Veloce by Hughes and Da Prato there is a picture of the Rheims car. With the text "12 hours of Rheims , July of 1957:1300 GT class -winning SVZ of Gorza /Morolli."
on the web site racing sports cars is the following results for SVZ #01613 given
Chassis 01613 - Complete Archive - Racing Sports Cars
Egidio Gorza -Minaudo made a 10 place in the Giro di Sicillia 14 of April 1957 start number 157
Egidio Gorza had a DNF in Mille Miglia 12 of Maj 1957 startnumber 106
Egidio Gorza - Olinto Morolli had a 9 place in general in Reims 14 of July 1957 startnummer 12
Egidio Gorza enterd a SVZ Double Bubble in Coppa Intereuropa på Monza 1957 different painting than the Giro di Sicilla car
We know it was a double bubble car that Gorza was entering in Giro de Sicillia, from pictures.
I haven't been able to find pictures of the car in MM.. The reason for the DNF, was that a accident. So he had to rebuild the car, before Rheims. As the Rheims car does look different to the pictures Giro di Sicillia car.
In the Giuliettaletta Giulietta Golden Jubilee 1954-2004 Issue 82: Adrian Smits wrote regarding #02348.
"According to Baljan it transpired during the restoration that the car had the bodywork adapted to accommodate a racing type big bore fuel filler on the RH-side. There exists a picture (see Hughes/da Prato "Giulietta da Corsa" p.36) of a light coloured 3rd type SVZ at the 12 Hours of Reims race in July 1957 with such a fuel filler. (Author's note: this date must most probably be 1958 or 1959 as in July 1957 no 3rd definitive type SVZ existed at that time!). It was driven at that time by Gorza/Morolli and it won the 1300 GT class. It is not known who owned this car at the time. Neither can it be confirmed that the Rheims picture depicts No.02348. Gorza himself owned a 2nd type double bubble SVZ No.04069."??????
In Het Klaverblaadje nr 68 forth quarter 1994. He raises the question. Did Gorza have 3 SVZ at e cert en time
Did Gorza really have 2 or more SVZ. We know that he had more than one Sprint Veloce
Whey did Gorza change the paintings on the Giro di Sicilla befor start in MM 1957 ?????
Did Gorza own the Rheims Car????
Was there other connections with the #02348 other that the filler cab that Bart Baljon noticed, and the Rheims car that Gorza drove during the race.
Was it the car Edgar Barney brought???
|07-21-2015 04:54 AM|
Originally Posted by Ti Sup View Post
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