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  Topic Review (Newest First)
Today 02:03 PM
2000 touring sp The third
Registration ZH 7891-Richard Huber-Klagenfurt 1960

As mentioned by Tim Buttkus do all 3 cars bear Swiss registration.
The first 2 Stern and Berney have the first 2 letters in the registration as VD, as I have understand it is from Geneva.
But it is difficult to understand. That the presuming oldest car Stern car has the highest registrations number, and visa versa the Berney car has the lowest.
Today 02:01 PM
2000 touring sp The second
Berney- Dethurens Rallye de la Lavande 1959
Today 02:00 PM
2000 touring sp Here follow the pictures of the cars mentioned by Tim Buttkus.
They have all been used before on this tread
The first Marcel Stern from 3 hours at Auvergne 1958.
Today 07:00 AM
2000 touring sp Maybe a further information could be helpful.
The number 66 and 83 both have the Scuderia Conrero badge on the side of the front.
The number 52 has no indentation of the tuner.
I shall promise to upload the full pictures.
Today 06:51 AM
2000 touring sp Thank you Tim Buttkus.
was just going to post this
Thank you Richard
That is a fully acceptable attitude.

A little more information. But I am certain that with the knowledge of Tim Buttkus, he is able to recognize these photos
Taking Tim Buttkus argumentation into consideration the age is as following.
Nr 52 is the oldest, 66 comes in the middle and 83 turned up in 1960 from Nowhere
Today 06:37 AM
tim buttkus Hello Touring 2000, no worries, no offence taken at all. The more dialogue, the better. As you can imagine, I would love to think that the car that Stern raced is the same as the Berney car as the one parked in my garage, but... there is still a high degree of speculation around here, I think.

I think you hit the nail on the head: if someone could just "simply" get the chassis number for the Stern and the Berney car - for both of which there is a (different !) number plate available in Vaud (Stern: VD 48783 ?; Berney: VD 31728)- one mistery would be solved... I tried a few times, but no luck. Perhaps the Swiss readers here with access to authorities could help (Incidentally, and while you are at it: please check the VIN for Richi Huber's car while registered in Zurich: ZH 7891). All I know is that in the original KfZ papers with my car, when registered with Theo Geither in Munich in 1960 (i.e. at the same time that Richi Huber campaigned his car), the VIN was 02348.

The fuel filler cap on your three pictures look very similar indeed, all protruding. Incidentally: does anyone have a fuel filler cap as per the photos, preferably a period one as supposed to he cheap aftermarket ones ? I would love to re-instate the external fuel filler cap on 02348, but would like this to look as authentic as possible. Send me a private message.


Today 06:28 AM
richards All,

No wish to side with either party, but I do enjoy the discussion!

As a point of interest the featured SVZ above appears to have later Abarth type door openers - button and pull lever - though I must say #83 looks more authentic than #66.....

Today 04:38 AM
2000 touring sp Hello Tim Buttkus.
Sorry , I have no indentation of intimidating your car or you knowledge. I have the deepest respect for the knowledge of the history of you car, and yoy general knowledge on the history of the SWZ.
This is what I wrote
“But Personally, I think the Stern car and the Berney car is the same. I am aware that I don’t hold the final proof, the chassis number of the Stern car.
I will not argue on you comment that they could have been built at the same time. Strange things happened.
But the time frame I mentioned, did make me thinking.
And personally I find I difficult to believe that someone buy a car. Got it rebuild . Participated in a few races. And the set it away in the garage. Just to sell it 3 years later, to Huber.
I find it unbelievable, my personal opinion. Back then was the saying among the drivers. Win on Sunday, sell on Monday. Why did Stern, according to you opinion Tim Buttkus, not take the opportunity to sell his SVZ. SVZ was cars that was a great interest for. So for me the histories around Sterns car and the Huber car that they should have been built on a Giulietta spider chassis 2200mm axle distance. I do have very difficult to believe those stories..
You mention the different between the Stern car and the Berney car. I only have few pictures Stern in the SVZ. But comparing with the Berney car, but on those pictures I do have, I find it difficult for me to find where they differ.
You mention one object, the filler cap. A feature that the 02348 chassis is known for, and it has been used to identify pictures of the chassis.
I attach 3 pictures where I have tried to focus on filler cap.
I will look forward to you comment.
Yesterday 01:15 PM
tim buttkus
Marcel Stern and Edgar Berney

Originally Posted by 2000 touring sp View Post
Yes, as it has been said before on this fables tread, there are still a lot of stones to be turned in question of the SVZ.
But Personally, I think the Stern car and the Berney car is the same.
According to racingresults .com.
Marcel Stern had his first start in Zagato at Auvergne the 27 of July 1958.
He was racing a Veloce at Nürburgring at the 1 of June 1958. I know we shall be conscious about registrations of start in Sprint Veloce and Sprint Veloce Zagato. But his first registries start in Veloce was 29 of May 1956.Ald all other start op to Auvergne was in Veloce.
Then his last Start at Nürburgring 3 of August 1958, it is registries as Veloce. But there is pictures from Nürburgring where he is standing in front of a Zagato.
So I presume that he had it rebuilded between the 1 June 1958 and 27 July 1958.
And after his last start at the 3 of august sold the car to Edgar Berney. They were both driving on Swiss registration.
Edgar Berney had his first registries start on the 7 of April 1958 in Pau registries as Alfa Romeo.
His second registries start is at Avus at the 21 of September where he is registries in Zagato, together was all the following starts until he got a GTO.
That’s is my personal opinion.
Upon this is the tales that said. That the Stern car isn’t built on a Sprint Veloce chassis. But on a Spider Veloce chassis. But I haven’t been able to find any proof of this tale.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Hello Touring 2000 SP,

Edgar Berney raced a Veloce on 7th April 1958 in Pau. There is a foto of him during that race, and it is clear that the car in the race is a Veloce. On 7th September 1958 he raced a SVZ in the Coppa Intereuropa. So, in theory it is also conceivable that he converted his own Veloce between April and September 1958.

In 1959 he sold SVZ 02348 to Theo Geither of Munich after the 1000km race at the Nuerburgring. Alfa Romeo attests 02348 to be a Veloce and to be manufactured on 4th July 1956.

Marcel Stern raced a Veloce for the first time in the Mille Miglia on 29th April 1956, No. 118 - I believe. Incidentally, Max Berney, Edgar Berney's father, also raced a Veloce in the same race, but unfortunatly had a fatal accident in the race. Neither of the Veloces that both men raced could have been 02348, because it had not yet been manufactured.

A third donor car - 02348 - must have been transferred into the SVZ. In theory it is possible that Marcel Stern converted a Veloce - or another version - in the summer of 1958 and sold it to Berney just a few months later, but I think it is more likely that both gents converted two cars more or less in parallel. Which would explain the difference in shape of the filler cap commented on here in this threat as well.

There is a view that an SVZ raced by Richie Huber in 1960 could have been handed through by Edgar Berney. Perhaps this car could have been Marcel Sterns car, instead ?


06-23-2016 08:25 AM
Originally Posted by FRECCIA D'ORO View Post
Well done Carter!

I did try to look at an enlarged section of the photo to see if the
registration was visible, but the printing screen from the book is
too coarse. Maybe Nicolo' can help.

06-23-2016 08:12 AM
Originally Posted by CarterHendricks View Post
With Nicolo's permission here are slightly better scans from the book.

Well done Carter!

06-23-2016 08:08 AM
CarterHendricks With Nicolo's permission here are slightly better scans from the book.

06-23-2016 07:37 AM
Originally Posted by 2000 touring sp View Post
Thank you
To me it looks like a SVZ, more than a TZ with the rear end.
Unfortunately I don’t have a picture of the rear end of the Lemans car, for comprising.
But I would like it to be 01944,
let’s wait to hear, what the knowledge participant of this tread has to say.
Anyway thanks a lot for you informative pictures
06-23-2016 07:35 AM
2000 touring sp Thank you
To me it looks like a SVZ, more than a TZ with the rear end.
Unfortunately I don’t have a picture of the rear end of the Lemans car, for comprising.
But I would like it to be 01944,
let’s wait to hear, what the knowledge participant of this tread has to say.
Anyway thanks a lot for you informative pictures
06-23-2016 07:25 AM
2000 touring sp chassis 01944 during Lemans 1960
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