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post #16 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-20-2016, 09:09 AM
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While I think we are talking about brand new Alfas, the 156 uses a FIAT platform. I can deal with that as I don't irrationally hate FIATs, infact I quite like them and glad FIAT bought Alfa Romeo. Could have been so much worse
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156 Series 1 v6 ... and remember it's all just opinions
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post #17 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-20-2016, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vsix
Im not sure if you know enough of Alfa Romeo if you write such comments.
I'm not sure if you know what you're talking about and if you really know how cars today are built. Only the body shape is different for many cars, but under the "skin" they're so similar.

Do YOU know that chassis from 164, Saab 9000, Fiat Croma and Lancia Thema nearly 30 years ago were the same because of a joint-venture called tipo 4 ?

When Alfa, I mean Alfa and not Fiat launched the 105 series, later launched the 116series, these cars were unique to all other manufacturers in that class. Do you know what I mean ? Unique construction details from front to rear with Giulia 1962 as well as the Alfetta was unique in 1972 to all competitors. And when Alfa launched the Alfasud, its features were unique. Boxer engine in this class with front wheel drive was unique as some other details, too.

And now you'll tell me the "Alfas" of today are not FIAT's ? There is no unique engine any more and if you'd have a look at so many details inside & outside of these cars you'd be very surprised. The badge "Alfa" today is simply a bluff package, nothing else.

Do you still think Mercedes cars are unique ? Should I tell you some details ?
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post #18 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-20-2016, 09:51 AM
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It's true that many FCA part are put in Fiats and Alfas to-day. In most cases the parts that goes in an Alfa is somewhat more sufisticated than the parts in Fiat.
However, the new Giulia is all it own. New engines (both diesels and petrol), new body and new undercarriage all to its own.
But part could find they way into other FCA cars. That will not make the Giulia a less good car. It might make an other model better than it otherwise would be.
Car manufacturers of this world cooperate in many ways and share lots of parts with each other.
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post #19 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-20-2016, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by hunttheshunt View Post
And now you'll tell me the "Alfas" of today are not FIAT's ? There is no unique engine any more and if you'd have a look at so many details inside & outside of these cars you'd be very surprised. The badge "Alfa" today is simply a bluff package, nothing else.

you are wrong, Alfa is not rebadged Fiat, like Audi, SKoda ,Seat etc using all same parts, dont wanna arque but you dont know enough if u call Alfa as rebadged Lancia /Fiat, if you really think so then Ferrari and Maserati are aswell rebadged Fiats-.

-Antti: --ex Alfas:155 2.0 8V '92,155 2.0 16V '96,156 V6 '98,156 V6 '02
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post #20 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-20-2016, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vsix
you are wrong, Alfa is not rebadged Fiat,
No, I'm not. I think you don't know these cars in detail. Alfa/Fiat is very similar to VW/Audi. 164 wasn't an Alfa any more except of engines, and 145/146 with latter engine ? Engine, gearbox, all Fiat. So not even since yesterday.
And don't talk stupid things about Ferrari/Maserati which I never spoke about.

Keep on dreaming about "Alfa". Better realize you just pay much more for an "exclusive" Fiat. You buy an Audi, in reality you buy an even more exclusive VW. Because the cheapest VW is Skoda. Buy an Gallardo, get an more expensive R8.....
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post #21 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-20-2016, 04:06 PM
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The 164 was the last of the tipo 4 cars to be built and the only part of the platform that was used was the middle section. Everything else was Alfa designed. The 164 was also designed entirely by Alfa before Fiat took over. Those are facts.

Current Alfas
2004 GT 3.2 V6 (Stromboli Grey).
2008 159 TI Sportwagon 2.4 JTDM (Stromboli Grey).
1987 75 3 litre (red). My first 75 and now my son's.
!989 75 3 litre (black). Shared project with my son.
2000 156 2 litre Twin Spark, ( Cosmos Blu metallic), my daughter's car.

Past Alfas
1990 75 3 litre Potenziata (black), now sold & living in Newcastle NSW.
1990 75 3 litre Potenziata (grey, sadly deceased due to fire).
1982 GTV 2 litre, red, (daughter's first Alfa)
2 x 1992 164s, (1 red, 1 grey).
2 x 1988 33s, (both red).
1985 GTV 2 litre, (white).
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post #22 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-20-2016, 04:20 PM
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Bianchi,

Your Alfa Spider, what's left of it, represents what you want it to be. This is fine, but I agree with everything said below...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lokki View Post
Bianchi -

Remember, you asked for opinions: here's one

Alfa Romeo is gestalt concept.

It is a selection of components combined together by professional engineers working to meld them together to create a cohesive and synergistic experience in a vehicle.

The combinations are important. A Cobra is an AC Ace roadster combined with a Ford V-8 engine, and various but differing suspension and body modifications. With a Chevrolet engine an AC Ace cannot become a Cobra even if it has all the other elements, and similarly, a Ford engine in a different roadster does not make a Cobra.

The Alfa 159 is a selection of components combined together by Alfa Engineers pursuing a specific and cohesive feel in the car- that gestalt equals an Alfa Romeo.

I understand that you are attempting to argue that your vehicle, with modified bodywork, different albeit Alfa-based GM engine, modified suspension design, T5 transmission, and (I forget whose) brakes, and a revised interior including Miata? seats remains an Alfa Romeo, but it is not, any more than than a Cobra remains an AC Ace. Your car is a "Bianchi"; an American ecceterini. It is no doubt a very fine vehicle and unquestionably superior to the 70's Alfa Spider in which it is based.

I think you should embrace that, and perhaps put your own logo on it, as many proud small car builders/ modifiers like Abarth do. Your car is a great experiment and fascinating to read about. We're glad you're doing what you do and love the mods and improvements. However, a camel is never going to be a horse, no matter how much you beat it.
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post #23 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-20-2016, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by hunttheshunt View Post
No, I'm not. I think you don't know these cars in detail. Alfa/Fiat is very similar to VW/Audi. 164 wasn't an Alfa any more except of engines, and 145/146 with latter engine ? Engine, gearbox, all Fiat. So not even since yesterday.
And don't talk stupid things about Ferrari/Maserati which I never spoke about.

Keep on dreaming about "Alfa". Better realize you just pay much more for an "exclusive" Fiat. You buy an Audi, in reality you buy an even more exclusive VW. Because the cheapest VW is Skoda. Buy an Gallardo, get an more expensive R8.....
I understand what you are getting at, but your views are very "black and white". the 145/146 and all other subsequent TS engines? Yes they used a Fiat block, but the head assembly and associated parts were Alfa design - not used in any Fiat to my knowledge. As stated above - very little of the 164 was shared with any other of the "Tipo" cars. To my mind, the Alfa brand is more about the unique nature and feel of the cars, rather than arcane arguments about what percentage of a car is unique. In reality most car firms are involved in some form of platform or mechanical component sharing, whether it be Vauxhall and Saab using the FPT JTD engine, or Alfa using the (crap) GM gearbox on later model diesels, Ford using Peugeot engines, etc etc. Its the reality of modern auto manufacture. Getting snooty about "Its not a real Alfa" is harking back to the days when "real Alfisti" sneered at the Alfasud as "not a real Alfa".......

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post #24 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-20-2016, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by rgwm View Post
To my mind, the Alfa brand is more about the unique nature and feel of the cars, rather than arcane arguments about what percentage of a car is unique. In reality most car firms are involved in some form of platform or mechanical component sharing, whether it be Vauxhall and Saab using the FPT JTD engine, or Alfa using the (crap) GM gearbox on later model diesels, Ford using Peugeot engines, etc etc. Its the reality of modern auto manufacture. Getting snooty about "Its not a real Alfa" is harking back to the days when "real Alfisti" sneered at the Alfasud as "not a real Alfa".......
Exactly. And sharing of engines and other components goes way, way back in the auto industry. Cords and Auburns used Lycoming engines, Volvo and SAAB used various engines from Ford, Renault and GM over the years. The list is long and very old. It is all about economy and making a profit. Thankfully nobody in our Alfa club has that attitude of certain Alfas are not "real Alfas". We love them all.

Current Alfas
2004 GT 3.2 V6 (Stromboli Grey).
2008 159 TI Sportwagon 2.4 JTDM (Stromboli Grey).
1987 75 3 litre (red). My first 75 and now my son's.
!989 75 3 litre (black). Shared project with my son.
2000 156 2 litre Twin Spark, ( Cosmos Blu metallic), my daughter's car.

Past Alfas
1990 75 3 litre Potenziata (black), now sold & living in Newcastle NSW.
1990 75 3 litre Potenziata (grey, sadly deceased due to fire).
1982 GTV 2 litre, red, (daughter's first Alfa)
2 x 1992 164s, (1 red, 1 grey).
2 x 1988 33s, (both red).
1985 GTV 2 litre, (white).
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post #25 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-20-2016, 09:18 PM
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Yes, marketing targets of automotive enterprises work really well with you guys !

The best what can happen to every brand is: The customers convince themselves to the promotion campaign. Well done, keep your eyes closed.....
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post #26 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-20-2016, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vsix View Post
you are wrong, Alfa is not rebadged Fiat, like Audi, SKoda ,Seat etc using all same parts, dont wanna arque but you dont know enough if u call Alfa as rebadged Lancia /Fiat, if you really think so then Ferrari and Maserati are aswell rebadged Fiats-.
Maybe with the brand new cars you could be right, but surely the platform will be shared eventually anyway ... but our 156's use FIAT platforms.
Pete

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post #27 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-21-2016, 04:50 AM
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Originally Posted by hunttheshunt View Post
Yes, marketing targets of automotive enterprises work really well with you guys !

The best what can happen to every brand is: The customers convince themselves to the promotion campaign. Well done, keep your eyes closed.....
So what in the real world is the alternative? - apart from us all bowing to your obviously greater knowledge of all things Alfa

Let the brand expire, like so many others, or keep it ticking over with a spark of individuality, awaiting the (possibly current) moment when a new car can be produced from "a clean sheet of paper" to revive a stand-alone brand?

I'm actually struggling to think of a brand that has the racial purity you seem to require. Jaguar - nope, been BL, Ford, Tata.........Ford - nah it's used Peugeot engines, platform shares with Fiat for the KA.......Porsche - bastard child of a bug, 925 was an LT-van coupe.........Mercedes - hmmm its sprinter van platform-shares with VW etc, etc.

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post #28 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-21-2016, 05:13 AM
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Originally Posted by rgwm
Porsche - bastard child of a bug, 925 was an LT-van coupe........
944/968 has nothing more in common with LT/Audi based engine in 924. Pure Porsche, half of a 928 motor.

993/996/997 - what do they have in common with bugs ?

I didnīt use the term "DNA" because you guys are talking about brand names and not real brands. What "Alfa" is missing, is that ingenious DNA these cars had built in when theyīve been Alfa and not Fiat. Starting with 750/101, then 105/115, 116....these cars were unique cars, unique by all of the construction philosophy of men, true engineers like Busso, Satta Puliga, Chiti, Hruska.

The same happened to other brands/manufacturers like Abarth, Alpine, Jaguar, Porsche, Mercedes and many other. Compare how different Mercedesīs were constructed up to the W124 and look what they are like today.

Ferrari still has itīs own DNA, also Aston Martin does.

When Ford was running its PAG derivate, a Jaguar was partly an expensive Ford, Volvo and LR were going on to loose completely their DNAīs, only AM was on the right way because of the brillant CEO Dr Bez.

Now and today, and thatīs the proof that itīs still possible to do it different, since Jag, Volvo and LR have been sold from PAG, these brands are going back their right way and to regain their DNA. Funny, that Ford never could get these brands work to earn money and the new owners are able to.
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post #29 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-21-2016, 06:20 AM
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I think you'll find that Ferrari aren't averse to dipping into Mummy Fiat's parts bin.......

Vice Chairman Alfa Romeo Owners Club UK Ltd.
Alfa 75 V6 racer
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post #30 of 35 (permalink) Old 11-21-2016, 06:25 AM
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I donīt think the FIAT parts are in any way from suspension, brake systems, engine or gear box area....
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