Supercharged Milano race results

[Bill-Sims]

James,

You are right about the torsion bars being extra weight, but I believe (not sure) they are hollow. I've had them out of this car and another in the past. The RSR coilovers are designed to be "helper springs", and not take all the weight. You lower the front to a certain height and then install the springs.

I'm concerned that if I stiffened up the coilovers more then I'd have the chassis give way. My previous race car was an Alfetta running in E Prepared, and it tore up the front chassis, even though I wasn't running coilovers. I was running very stiff front bar and very little suspension travel. Added a brace between the shock towers and had some circle track guys gusset up the front,and that bought the car a little more time, but it was eventually too far gone for racing.

Richard Jemison did the clutch, transaxle, shift linkage, and tranny. Have his lightweight hockey puck racing clutch (aluminum center with no springs), and he lightened 2 or 3 gears (have forgotten how many), and designed a shifter that is similar to the Alfetta/GTV6. He set up the LSD for 50% lockup, but I'm having trouble with traction coming out of corners. Hoping softening up the rear bar will help. The engine flywheel was lightened by 50%, also.

Last dyno was 251 rwhp at 7 psi. The dyno owner says his dyno registers 15% less than the popular Dyno-Jet, so that would be 295 on a Dyno-jet. Have increased boost to 7.5 pounds, so should be up about another 5 or 6 hp. Torque was very flat from 3700 rpm to 5700. I believe the top end is severely limited by the European downpipes that the headers flow into (max hp is at 6100 rpm). I need to get bigger diameter pipes, but have plenty of hp for now.

[Echo Leader]

Bill,

Sounds like a more and more impressive setup with every bit of new info!

What sort of alignment are you running, front and rear? From the small avatar photo, it doesn't look like the front has too radical a camber setting. I'm guessing you've taken the "I'll stop the front from rolling and thus eliminate any concerns about a non-optimal camber curve range" approach? Again, I'm a bit fuzzy on SM rules (I'm mostly STS, myself), are you allowed to modify the hub-end of the suspension geometry?

So you've ditched the Iso-static shift mechanism then? I was under a friends Milano a few weeks back, and that was my first encounter with one...it was an interesting contraption. I can't imagine something so complex being good for racing. Did you attempt to run with it prior to having Richard make you something?

Does SM let you play with gear ratios? Verde or Platinum box?

Sorry for all the questions! It's just really exciting to see someone seriously campaigning a transaxle Alfa in Solo. If anything is 'proprietary information', just let me know and I'll quit asking

[Alfar7]

Bill,
Are you spinning both tires or just the inside one?
If the latter, it`s probably a result is burnt oil buildup on the plates. That much HP in tight corners is asking alot from a unit designed for less than 200 ft lb torque.
But...
You can probably do some improvement to the lock up gription yourself. The ringgear/LSD assembly can be removed by dropping the passenger side driveshaft & tying the brake assembly up out of the way, and removing the side plate.
Wash the mess out of it with gas & then soak the whole thing in Castrol Super Purple Cleaner (full strength) for a couple of days. This will eat all the carbon build up on the plates off of them. Make the insides turn two or three times a day to get the cleaner in between everything. (use chemical gloves)
There should be at least .030-.040 free clearance in the clutch pack in the unit.
Somewhere in the attic are a set of drive plates with the ramps modified so that the acceleration side gives about 80% lockup but the coast (decel) ramp is stock so turn in is not affected. I kept all the trick stuff when I sold the GT2 car.
PM me if you have questions about cleaning. There is a better (super secret) method but the Castrol method is the easiest and even JJ could do it.

[turbolarespider]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alfar7 Bill, Are you spinning both tires or just the inside one? If the latter, it`s probably a result is burnt oil buildup on the plates. That much HP in tight corners is asking alot from a unit designed for less than 200 ft lb torque. But... You can probably do some improvement to the lock up gription yourself. The ringgear/LSD assembly can be removed by dropping the passenger side driveshaft & tying the brake assembly up out of the way, and removing the side plate. Wash the mess out of it with gas & then soak the whole thing in Castrol Super Purple Cleaner (full strength) for a couple of days. This will eat all the carbon build up on the plates off of them. Make the insides turn two or three times a day to get the cleaner in between everything. (use chemical gloves) There should be at least .030-.040 free clearance in the clutch pack in the unit. Somewhere in the attic are a set of drive plates with the ramps modified so that the acceleration side gives about 80% lockup but the coast (decel) ramp is stock so turn in is not affected. I kept all the trick stuff when I sold the GT2 car. PM me if you have questions about cleaning. There is a better (super secret) method but the Castrol method is the easiest and even JJ could do it.

[Bill-Sims]

Richard, both wheels are spinning. When I put the car on jackstands I can stop one wheel while the other is spinning, but that's under no-load, though in gear. If I understand the clutch disks, they only lock up under load.

If the sway bar adjustment doesn't do the trick then I'm going to look into lowering the Watts link pivot point like Eric mentions. And if that doesn't do it, then I'm going to clean up the disks the way you described (have copied and pasted your excellent instructions).

[Bill-Sims]

James,

Richard Jemison put a 4.10 diffy in the car. With the wheel/tire combo comes out to a 3.70, which is ideal for autocross...I have to get into third gear on only 1 course in 10, and can usually shift from 1st to 2nd early and stay there.

I run alot of negative camber--just doesn't show in that pic. Is 3 degrees. Can mod the hubs, but haven't seen the need.

I would like to get a bit of negative camber in the rear!

As for the isostatic shift, I bought a rebuild kit, but all that did was polish a turd.

[Bill-Sims]

James,

Running 0 degree toe-in and 3 degrees negative camber. Did run some toe-out before, but like this setting better in the slalom.

[Echo Leader]

Bill, I wonder if adding a bit of the rear camber you're currently wanting would help your gription issue. I guess if the diff isn't limiteding your slipping anymore, there's no hope.

I need to sort out my diff/tiresize situation. At the moment I usually find a spot or two on course where I'm spending too much time pounding the rev limiter. Actually, I have a lot more to do then just that. At the moment I'm running in STS with a virtually stock suspension setup and I'm not doing myself any favors. This winter I'm planning to upgrade torsions, rear springs, front and rear sways, bushes, and get the front aligned more aggressively. Hopefully that'll give me a more responsive car for next season.

Have you done any modeling of the suspension during your prepping? I've been fiddling with measurements and equations, but haven't actually focused myself and really nailed it all down. Hopefully I'll do all that when I'm under there, upgrading.

What made you decide to use the Milano as your platform of choice? I'm sure the 3.0L and LSDs make for a good choice, but in SM one could do this to a GTV6, correct?

[Bill-Sims]

James,

Some negative camber in rear would very likely help with traction. I've had to lower the rear tire pressure to 30 psi to get the amount of roll-over Kumho advises on the outer sidewall. I get virtually no inside roll-over. But that takes time (need to pull out the DeDion axle) and I work full-time and am in several organizations, too, so time is always tight.

Last year I drove Troy Marcella's GTV-6 in STS for an event. Car seemed to have plenty of power to be competitive, but without LSD it spun the inside rear tire like crazy. And the braking was alot less than I've become used to. Balance seemed good. I don't remember what mods he had done to the GTV-6--maybe Koni yellows and thicker torsion bars.

The Milano became my race car by default--the Navy had transferred me from Norfolk to New Orleans, and the old Alfetta race car was still in Virginia Beach when I decided to enter the Milano in a local event. It won GS. Then I switched to STS and it continued to win. Made some changes and ran in DSP, but there were only 2 or 3 cars running in that class. Made more changes and went up to SM.

In SM you can run any engine as long as it is built by the same manufacturer, or used by the manufacturer. So technically you could get one of those Indy Alfa V-8s and put in a GTV-6, if you are really wealthy or nuts or both!

GTV-6 would be better looking, IMO. I don't know if one would be faster with my same mods. I believe the Milano has a longer wheelbase, and weighs a little bit more. (does anybody have the facts????) I've had a GTV-6 before, and autocrossed it once many years ago when the Alfetta was OOC. It felt very slow and understeered like a pig, but did relatively well in GS, despite no LSD. That was with the 3.42 diffy.

When the GTV-6 got rear-ended, I replaced it with the Milano Verde. The stock Verde outperformed the stock GTV-6 in handling and acceleration.

As for suspension modeling, I left that to Ron Simons. He runs Milano/75 road racing cars in Europe.

[Echo Leader]

Bill,

Yes....I do experience the full glory of 'peg-legging' the GTV6 around the autox course. I wonder if STX is perhaps a better place for the GTV6 simply to allow the LSD. Your transaxle experience moving up through the classes is encouraging.

I'm impressed that the Milano was able to take GS victories. About what year was this? At the moment I wouldn't have bet that the Alfa could keep pace with the Mini Cooper S's in GS. Though I'd absolutely love it if they could.

Anyhow, all this autox talk has my blood pumping! I can't wait to make my suspension changes and get going!

[Bill-Sims]

Was 2000. You are right--the Mini Coopers would clean up, if driven with any skill at all.

When I drove Troy's GTV-6 there was a tight slalom right after the start. Based on the Milano first gear (did have honest 4.10 before the big wheels) I planned to shift after coming out of the slalom. Hit the rev limiter while in the slalom. First gear is really, really low on the GTV-6!

By the way, Troy is a heck of a driver. I'm not sure if he still has his cream colored GTV-6...he had it on the market. Is a very nice example, but he was looking for a car that was competitive. When he'd co-drive in competitive cars he'd nearly always beat the owners.

Now that my car is getting more sorted out (broke down alot with the Bosch and Pandora's Box ECU), I ought to give him a shot at co-driving.

[Grant]

What do you do about the fenders slicing the tires? Ignore it? Can you cut away at the body work to give you more room?

James, I hope you're getting stiffer than 27mm torsion bars..

[Bill-Sims]

Grant,

Used a cut-off tool to remove fender material until the fenders did not touch the tires anymore on cornering. That meant cutting out all I could in the rear, because of the doors.

The car shows more roll in the avatar and the pic Greg posted than it does these days. That was from a couple of years ago, before going from 27 to 30 mm front bar, and was with the OEM rear bar. Using Performatek's rear bar now.

[Echo Leader]

Bill,

Well hopefully Troy's GTV6 wasn't competitive due to the limited suspension mods.....otherwise my dreams of Alfa domination may be dashed. At the moment, I've managed to be at about 110% of the Philly STS champ (Cy Lee). Both he and his car can compete at the national level. I don't recall how he did this year...... My thinking was that getting times around Champ +10% with a stock suspension, non-class-winning Kumho Ecsta MXs, and in my first year of doing this might not be so bad. Maybe shave a second+ with the suspension bits and apparently there's a second+ to be had just going from the MXs to the Bridgestone RE01R. Though it could be that there just aren't enough modifications allowed in STS/STX to make the GTV6 competitive. If that's the case, maybe I'll see you in SM sooner then I originally thought

Grant, I'm only going with the 27.3mm bars to start with....Might turn out that I need more wheel rate, but I'm getting them on the cheap and anything will be an improvement. Anyway this is all a bit off-topic.

Did you go with the adjustable RSR dampers? and what spring rates did you select? My brother in law is going to be driving an SM GTV6 this year and he just got the RSR installed. He's even newer to the sport then I am though, so I doubt we'll be able to do much apples-to-apples comparing between you and he.

[Bill-Sims]

IMO, the thing most limiting the GTV-6 was the lack of LSD. If you can get into a class that allows that, then you are going to do much better.

Back in the late 80s there was a GTV-6 that was consistently in contention for FTD at Bremerton, where several nat'l champs run. I know his car was illegal (which is perhaps why he never went to nationals, as far as I know). That's before we had all the classes allowing so many mods. He did have an LSD. Don't know what engine work he had. Big wheels/tires for the day. And of course cars have progressed since then. I do know his GTV-6 was much faster than my Alfetta at the time.