Stock spider ability on track

[pillowmeto]

I have been given a FATT (friday at the track) at Summit Point for Christmas in my 1983 spider, which is recently purchased. My questions revolve around the cars ability to handle the day (in 20 minute bursts).

With stock, but in good condition, brakes w/ a street/track day pad will I need to worry about boiling my brake fluid? Will I overheat the rotors?

Is there something on the car, or in the engine/ fuel injection system, that commonly overheats during extended high cornering and braking forces, or long runs at high RPM? (eg: ignition coil, ignition module)

My car is currently completely stock but items planned before the track day include:

New clutch assm. (old clutch and bearing are at their end)

New 2nd gear and fork (pops out of 2nd when I lift off the throttle, replacement is subject to what i find when i open gearbox during clutch change)

Sump guard

Removable of complete Air Conditioning system

Installation of bolt in roll bar (no passenger foot well tube)
*required for track day

Possible 5 point harnesses

Poly bushings (may cut my own from another material if I can find it)

Warning lights for oil and coolant

Synthetic lube in engine, trans, and rear diff

Complete tear down, inspection, and reassembly of suspension and suspension mounted brake components with thread-lock on all threads and possible safety wiring as deemed necessary.


The car will eventually become modified for performance use, but at the moment I am concerned with a safe reliable car for this and possible future track days. Speed will come later.

Remember this will only be done 20 minutes at a time throughout the day.

[pillowmeto]

Almost forgot.

New tires (common autocross tire) and a high speed balance for them.

[vintage prep]

If thats a Spica car, make sure all the brackets clamping the metal fuel injector lines lines are clamped down tight. The RPM's you see on a race track are known to fracture them if they are not well secured.

[Zunige]

I have not put my '84 Spider on the track yet, but it has been seriously prepared with that in mind. In preparing my Spider I did a lot of research, but hopefully other members will also chime in here and share first hand experience... Your stock Spider, with a proper roll bar, should be fine for track lessons. Don't however, exceed its limitations. As part of those lessons they should teach you that. In other words, observe common sense things like your tach's red line, realize that your Spider is not going to corner like it would with a race suspension, that your stock brake system cannot withstand the extended heat and perform like race rotors and pads can, etc. Making sure that all components are not worn, as you are doing, is certainly a must. Ensuring that all fluids are fresh is also the way to go.

I don't understand why you are removing the A/C, as there is no reason why you can't have a car that is used on the track, but is also comfy on the street. Polyurethane bushings are available from several sources, such as Centerline (where I got mine) and Performatek. Polyurethane motor mounts are available from Don Ereminas. (I wouldn't fabricate, much less install, components for the track, where the loads are much greater, unless I had a solid knowledge base to support what I'm doing.) Autocross tires are not good for the track. Note for example, that Hoosier makes their much acclaimed competition tires in a track racing verison (R6), and an autocross version (A6). If you were to use the A6s on the race track, they would not perform well. If you want a dual race and autocross tire try the Kumho VictoRacer.

Good luck with your lessons - it's a nice present!

Best regards,

[pillowmeto]

The tires are chosen for street performance in mind, but need to hold up on the track, but do not need to perform at their peak. I am expecting to see worn outside edges at the end of the day.

The AC is going because it has some issues that need to be fixed that I don't feel like fixing, especially since I will definitely never turn it on, and with the engine out during the clutch install it will easy to remove, not to mention the weight (especially that mount bracket)

I do not like Poly bushing because they are not self lubricating, and tend to squeeze out any lubricant, causing them to stick, obviously not good. If they had a metal surface on them, like many rubber bushings, this would not be an issue. If I can replicate the bushing from a better material I would prefer that since I have not found any other materials for Alfas, yet. Metal is out of the question since this vehicle will be used daily.

I am going to try and take my Alfa to the limit, but I do not care if the limit is low due stock parts, but that the car can reach it. Being trained to get as close to the limit as possible isn't very helpful in a car that can not do that. My car does not have to stop as fast as the rest of the pack, but I would prefer to not have to baby it too much due to overheating. I am expecting it to fade after a few laps (or less), but am trying to avoid a large failure.

Some of the things listed were not necessarily done because of my track day, and were going to be done anyways, but were applicable to it so i mentioned them, like the AC, sump guard, and warning lights. I am one of those guys who will be paranoid about his gauges if he doesn't have a light, checking the oil pressure instead of driving. That's what I get for spending a large part of my day staring at engine gauges at work.

[genericwood]

Stock Alfas do pretty well at the track. I occasionally take my '74 GTV out for an Alfa Clubt track day. As long as everything is in good condition, you aren't likely to hurt it. I would recommend putting street/track brake pads on it. And most importantly, put fresh fluid in the system. I use ATE SuperBlue, but there are lots of other good fluids. If you are going to modify the car in the future anyway, you may want to go ahead and put adjustable upper a-arms on it. A little negative camber will do wonders for the handling and will also help prevent front tire wear. Finally, make sure your oil level is toward the top of the normal range. With street legal tires and stock suspension, you aren't likely to have a problem. But not letting the level get low will help prevent oil starvation in any long sweepers.

Most of all, have fun!

Erik

[msiert]

My experience in taking my street Spider to the track for the first time was that I had a brake fluid boiling problem. I would put a race grade brake fluid in and switch out your street brake pads out to a mild race grade pad......be very careful if your driving to the track with them for it will take longer for you to stop until they get up to temp!!!

The list of things you will want after your first track day will be endless!

[conedriver]

Hi pillowmeto,

Summit Point is a fun track, and has been used for at least two AROC Conventions. What you describe is similar to time trial activity at the conventions. I recommend the following in order of importance.

1. CHANGE THE BRAKE FLUID!!! (brake fluid is hydroscopic and absorbs water. When, not if, the water boils the steam is compressible and will not transmit hydraulic force from your master cylinder to the wheel cylinders)
2. Inspect the brake pads, strongly consider new stock pads or performance pads.
3. Do not install a 5 point harness if your helmet is not at, or under, the roll bar height (maybe check helmet and roll bar requirements for Summit Point FATT).
4. A good general tune up should be satisfactory if your Spider is in good shape.
5. If you buy "R" compound tires, drive on the street for a while for heat-cycling. Be carefull of buying autocross-only tires (Hoosier A6, or Khumo 710) since these will overheat under repetitive track laps. Also get a good pressure gage and inspect the wear frequently. Consider rotating front-to-rear halfway through the day.
6. Resist the "Red mist" and have a ball!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by pillowmeto I have been given a FATT (friday at the track) at Summit Point for Christmas in my 1983 spider, which is recently purchased. My questions revolve around the cars ability to handle the day (in 20 minute bursts). With stock, but in good condition, brakes w/ a street/track day pad will I need to worry about boiling my brake fluid? Will I overheat the rotors? Is there something on the car, or in the engine/ fuel injection system, that commonly overheats during extended high cornering and braking forces, or long runs at high RPM? (eg: ignition coil, ignition module) My car is currently completely stock but items planned before the track day include: New clutch assm. (old clutch and bearing are at their end) New 2nd gear and fork (pops out of 2nd when I lift off the throttle, replacement is subject to what i find when i open gearbox during clutch change) Sump guard Removable of complete Air Conditioning system Installation of bolt in roll bar (no passenger foot well tube) *required for track day Possible 5 point harnesses Poly bushings (may cut my own from another material if I can find it) Warning lights for oil and coolant Synthetic lube in engine, trans, and rear diff Complete tear down, inspection, and reassembly of suspension and suspension mounted brake components with thread-lock on all threads and possible safety wiring as deemed necessary. The car will eventually become modified for performance use, but at the moment I am concerned with a safe reliable car for this and possible future track days. Speed will come later. Remember this will only be done 20 minutes at a time throughout the day.

[pillowmeto]

Pads and brake fluid are definitely on the list, as well as the old pads which i will bring with me just in case, even though it shouldn't be enough to kill them.

The roll bar will be over my head, I would not have it any other way, I intend to have it conform with SCCA's regs for a roll bar minus the passenger well foot bar. It will be bolt in so I can (painstakingly) remove it so my tops will still work. A bar over my head with a helmet on would be over the roof line of my hard top and definitely soft top. I may fabricate myself, but I am considering Autopowers bar.

I am not considering an R compound tire or a dedicated auto x tire, but a street tire that has proven itself in auto x. If I wear through the outside 1/3 that day I would not be upset, they are not much money.

[PSk]

Flush out your fuel tank and replace fuel filters.

When I first tracked my humble little Alfa Sud it ran great for a couple of laps and then missed and carried on the rest of the day ... but was perfect on the way home. Ofcourse what had happened was simply that the hard cornering had moved the silt around in the fuel tank and blocked the fuel filter.

Once I removed the tank and cleaned it out and replaced the fuel filter I never had this problem again ... even after 8 years of hard racing.

Thus I think it is a road car to race car conversion required maintenance step.

Best
Pete
ps: Focus on the fun ... and control that red mist , even when a FIAT 500 passes you. I've watched too many good cars destroyed due to ego deflation ...

[pillowmeto]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSk ps: Focus on the fun ... and control that red mist , even when a FIAT 500 passes you. I've watched too many good cars destroyed due to ego deflation ...

[Enrico]

For a road/track car the emphasis should be on improved damping and roll stiffness, but the former cannot be relied upon too much for roll stiffness because of the 'S bend effect' where the car can be caught out holding roll from the first bend as it enters the second.
Any fool can put stiff dampers on a car but, of course, an infinitely stiff damper would just render the suspension totally solid, a Spider is a particular example of a car that can be utterly ruined by excessively stiff suspension because of the inherent flexibility of the open top structure. Don't go for stiff but opt for soft springs!
Clearly uprating the suspension requires specially valved Bilstein dampers, or for those on a tighter budget Bilstein equivalents,- the adjustment being applicable simultaneously in both bump and rebound.
So the rule is: use stiffer bushes, better damping and stiffer anti-roll bar, and you will still have an Alfa Romeo to drive on the road an track but one with more precise handling. Go beyond that and you will lose too many of the essential qualities that made the car what it is.

All too often the reaction is to condemn the system and spend loads of money on grooved disks or even larger ones with calipers to suit. Not necessary. The answer is simply to make sure all the braking components are in sound condition and change the fluid at regular intervals. Even for racing the only improvement really necessary would be to use a slightly harder pad material (HAWK or SBS). Larger front discs and calipers on a 105 are rarely a good idea on a road car because they do not easily reach operating temperature and are inclined to squeal and be generally unpleasant in daily use.