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08-24-2006, 09:59 AM
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Under Graduate
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: The Great Central Valley, California
Posts: 265
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Autocross and Roll Bars
I am planning on competing in local autocross events next year with my Spider. While reading various rulebooks, I’ve noticed an emphasis on roll bars for open top cars. The SCCA and AROC rules “strongly recommend” roll bars while the AROSC requires roll bars for convertibles competing in autocross events.
What are the chances of a roll-over in an autocross event?
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Ron--------------------- O--------------O
1988 Spider Graduate----====V====
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08-24-2006, 10:33 AM
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George Schweikle
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 1,607
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Ron,
It's great to see another Alfa autocrossing. Unless you have a shoulder harness, there is nothing in the SCCA Solo Rule book that requires roll bars in Stock, Street-Prepared, Street-Touring or Street-Modified. If you are considering a shoulder harness or running AROSC events, you should get a copy of all applicable rule books and understand the specific roll bar requirements (height, bracing, mounting, etc).
SCCA considers Solo (autocross) events a "Non-Speed driving skill contest...Competition licenses are not required, and hazards to spectators, participants and property do not exceed those encountered in normal, legal highway driving". AROSC obviously has their own rules.
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Originally Posted by Slash
I am planning on competing in local autocross events next year with my Spider. While reading various rulebooks, I’ve noticed an emphasis on roll bars for open top cars. The SCCA and AROC rules “strongly recommend” roll bars while the AROSC requires roll bars for convertibles competing in autocross events.
What are the chances of a roll-over in an autocross event?
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George Schweikle
1976 Spider (Dedicated Autocrosser)
1991 Spider Veloce (Retirement cruiser)
Scuderia Non Originale
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08-24-2006, 12:15 PM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Vista, CA
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AROSC haven’t put on an autocross event in many, many years so please don’t pay to much attention to our Comp Code in this area. If we were to start putting on autocross events, I’m sure we’d undertake a major reassessment of the autocross section before moving ahead.
Now that's said, from my limited experience, I think it would be very unlikely to see an Alfa spider roll over in an autocross event. However, there is certainly a possibility that it could happen. What I like to look at in situations like this is the risk-to-reward ratio. If the risk is small and the reward is large, it may be worth taking the risk. It's like playing the lottery, risk a few bucks and, as unlikely as it is, you may win millions. On the other hand, if what you risk is significant, say your life, and the reward is small, say the price and inconvenience of a rollbar, the picture tends to look a bit different.
Please note, however, that installing a rollbar for competition purposes can have a down side in street driving situations. On the street the rollbar represents something very hard firmly mounted not far from your head. As such it could cause a head injury in the event of an accident. Appropriate padding can help but the danger still exists.
Basically, this is one of those questions which has no simple answer. You just have to decide what makes sense for you.
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Bruce Colby
Competition Director, AROSC
'65 Sprint GT (TS race)
'69 1750 GTV (TS street)
'71 Jr. Z (special occasions)
'89 E30 (the dark side)
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'69 1750 Spider (sold  )
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08-24-2006, 12:28 PM
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Location: Southern California
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Just a thought: For a combined street/track car a bolt-in roll bar may work for you. Bolt in for the track event and remove for street use.
Jes
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87 Milano Verde - daily driver - Juliet
87 Milano 3.0 Motronic - budget race car - Roxanne
87 Milano 3.7 24v - race car
(Repeating what I suggest or do is at your own risk - be critical)
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08-24-2006, 01:50 PM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Oakland, CA
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Chances are minimal, however it is possible. I've seen a car at the nationals get real close. It was a low and super stiff Datsun 1200. It got sideways and hit a crease in the concrete and got up on two wheels and maybe a 45 degree angle.
Still I think, unless your planning on getting on a track with it, its not needed.
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Alex Jordan
1974 GTV
1978 Spider
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08-24-2006, 03:16 PM
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Under Graduate
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: The Great Central Valley, California
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Thanks for the replies, you guys have given me some things to think about.
I plan on leaving my Spider stock and competing on a rather casual basis. If the autocrossing turns out to be something I really like, maybe I’ll build a Street Prepared car in a few years and follow in George’s footsteps – especially if the SCCA changes Alfas to the FSP class! But, for now, I want to use my daily driver without modification, if I can. I have no desire to go out on a track at this time.
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Ron--------------------- O--------------O
1988 Spider Graduate----====V====
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08-24-2006, 05:33 PM
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I suppose most people think it is overkill, but I don't think I could regularly drive a Spider on the street without a roll bar. When I was 16, I rolled my first car, a Fiat 850 Spider. Pretty sure it saved my life or at least kept me out of a wheelchair. The bar took the abuse and I walked away. I'd be more comfortable autocrossing a Spider without a bar than driving one in traffic.
For the record, my '56 doesn't have a bar, but then it doesn't see regular use either!
Erik
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08-24-2006, 06:09 PM
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George Schweikle
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 1,607
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Correction: the proposed BMW move is to CSP and BSP, sorry
Hi Ron,
No word regarding moving DSP Spiders and Coupes to FSP but, there's a proposal by the SCCA Solo events committee to move the BMW's to CSP and DSP. This would certainly tend to even the playing field in DSP.
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Originally Posted by Slash
Thanks for the replies, you guys have given me some things to think about....If the autocrossing turns out to be something I really like, maybe I’ll build a Street Prepared car .....especially if the SCCA changes Alfas to the FSP class! But, for now, I want to use my daily driver without modification, if I can. I have no desire to go out on a track at this time.
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__________________
George Schweikle
1976 Spider (Dedicated Autocrosser)
1991 Spider Veloce (Retirement cruiser)
Scuderia Non Originale
Last edited by conedriver; 08-25-2006 at 03:21 AM.
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08-24-2006, 09:05 PM
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Registered User
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Location: Mt Gilead, Ohio, USA
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by conedriver
Hi Ron,
No word regarding moving DSP Spiders and Coupes to FSP but, there's a proposal by the SCCA Solo events committee to move the BMW's to CSP and DSP. This would certainly tend to even the playing field in DSP.
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Neil C.
85 GTV 6 "Benna della ruggine e mangiatore dello zoccolo"
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08-29-2006, 02:27 PM
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Which Italian car today?
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 166
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Depends on the sanctioning body and club insurance
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Originally Posted by Slash
I am planning on competing in local autocross events next year with my Spider. While reading various rulebooks, I’ve noticed an emphasis on roll bars for open top cars. The SCCA and AROC rules “strongly recommend” roll bars while the AROSC requires roll bars for convertibles competing in autocross events.
What are the chances of a roll-over in an autocross event?
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Although SCCA and AROC rules may not require it, not all clubs are SCCA or AROC clubs. More than likely, it will be up to the insurance carrier used by the club. You will want to check with the clubs where you will be autocrossing before the event. If you ever do a Track Day event, the rollbar will be mandatory.
Personally, I'd never have a convertible on the street without a rollbar. Too many SUVs and larger cars out there. It is much safer driving environment on the track. And though extremely unlikely, rollovers do happen on the autocross course - wheels break, tires deflate due to lost valve stems, and suspension components can break. Plus even a bolt-in rollbar will provide additional structural rigidity for the vehicle. Better safe than sorry, IMHO.
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08-30-2006, 11:00 AM
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Registered User
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Join Date: May 2005
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As an ex-racer, I'd strongly advise a good rollbar. Autopower has a pretty good streetable setup.
One of the things that really makes a difference in Xcross is good tires. Get a second set of rims and a set of Hoosiers. Not as expensive per set as good street tires and can last a season or two of driving.
Don't need fancy rims either, just any good 14 by 6 or 7 with the correct offset.
R
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08-30-2006, 12:05 PM
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Registered User
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by 60sRacer
One of the things that really makes a difference in Xcross is good tires. Get a second set of rims and a set of Hoosiers. Not as expensive per set as good street tires and can last a season or two of driving.
Don't need fancy rims either, just any good 14 by 6 or 7 with the correct offset.
R
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Hoosiers are sticky, but wear out REALLY fast, and are also not too hot on the track. The Kuhmos can be truly dual purpose tires.
And if you are driving an Alfa, winning a National Championship is not exactly in the cards anymore, eh, Geroge?
If you want to run street tires, the best are the Falken Azenis (sp?)- John Hoard loves to run these on his GTA Jr. Not as fast as the real R tires, but pretty close. It's a good compromise if you can't get a second set of rims. And hopefully, your local club has a >140 treadware allowance.
Eric
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08-30-2006, 03:36 PM
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Registered User
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Eric, just curious why you don't like the Hoosiers on the track? The vintage groups we run don't allow them. But I had always heard great things about them. I assume you are talking about the radials? Another autocross option is the Hoosier Street TD bias tires. You can buy used tires from we vintage racers with quite a bit of tread left. One advantage is that you don't need to run a lot of negative camber. If you are also driving the car on the street, that's a nice thing.
Erik
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08-30-2006, 04:58 PM
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George Schweikle
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 1,607
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I think Eric took a set of Autocross compound tires to a track, and this just won't work. In the Bias tire days, Autocross Hoosiers were "Autocrosser", and track compounds were "Street TD". The autocrosser is essentially gone, and the newest radial versions are "R6" and "A6" for Race and autocross, respectively (these are replacements for the old R3SO5 and A3SO5).
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Originally Posted by genericwood
Eric, just curious why you don't like the Hoosiers on the track? The vintage groups we run don't allow them. But I had always heard great things about them. I assume you are talking about the radials? Another autocross option is the Hoosier Street TD bias tires. You can buy used tires from we vintage racers with quite a bit of tread left. One advantage is that you don't need to run a lot of negative camber. If you are also driving the car on the street, that's a nice thing.
Erik
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George Schweikle
1976 Spider (Dedicated Autocrosser)
1991 Spider Veloce (Retirement cruiser)
Scuderia Non Originale
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08-31-2006, 04:51 AM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Apr 2003
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by genericwood
Eric, just curious why you don't like the Hoosiers on the track? The vintage groups we run don't allow them. But I had always heard great things about them. I assume you are talking about the radials? Another autocross option is the Hoosier Street TD bias tires. You can buy used tires from we vintage racers with quite a bit of tread left. One advantage is that you don't need to run a lot of negative camber. If you are also driving the car on the street, that's a nice thing.
Erik
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George got what I meant. Few people are willing to shell out money for one set of tires, let alone two sets of spare tires.
The A compound Hoosiers are the top bananna. If you go to the basic road race compound- they are pretty much the same as the Kuhmos on the autocross course. But George was mentioning how his autocross compund Hoosiers were getting squirmy after a large number of laps- the autocross tires are designed to warm up FAST, since SCCA autocross rules do not allow drivers to run hot laps- so the tires cool down some between runs.
Hoosier makes a great line of specialized tires, but if you are on a serious budget, the Kuhmos are a great option, IMHO.
If (I'm going to start saying when, soon) I go vintage racing, I'll probably even start on the Kuhmo's if the series allows me- more because I'm very familar with them than anything else. But I look forward to trying a set of the Hoosier tire that looks very vintage...
When I'm ready to attempt to run at the front, then the best Hoosiers might find a way into the budget
Eric
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