What Racing Group to attach to...

[turbolarespider]

I'm sure some of you know that I've been planning to build a race car for some time. Well, after the Alfas at the Glen event, the wife wants to really get it going, too! (gotta love that!).

So, I'm searching all of the racing groups to figure out which ones to keep track of.

Being in SE Michigan, the obvious choice is VSCDA, which has pretty simple rules. Second behind that will be SVRA, which hosted last weekend's event. And then, my "distant" third place tie will be HSR and HRG.

IF I ever want to run in the historic BS or U2 Trans Am series, who does that now? I see that the bsedan.com is back going, while the twofivechallenge.com page is rather dead.

The car is a '67 Jr, which will probably get a 2.0l, but I'm still considering a 1750, since it will run Grp 3 in SVRA.

The big debate in my head is whether or not to run fender flairs- I have a set of damaged ones that I've planned to fix, and if that will prevent me running in a decent class, I'll avoid it. OTOH, the wife REALLY likes the look of the flairs, especially with the exposed rivets, so I'm leaning that direction.

Anyway, any other suggestions for groups to keep an eye on?

Thanks
Eric Storhok

[Tigaman]

First off, Eric, I would prepare the car to the specs of the most conservative club you are likely to run with. Just gives you the most options. Shanabrook and others seem to do just fine with no flares. Now all they need are full-tread radials or bias-ply tires to fit in!

Flares are a big, big hot button with Jackl Woerhle, the Tech Cahir of SVRA. If you have VSCDA flares like Rod Beer, Steve Fog or the Stark-mobile, you may be in class 8 RS (IMSA mid-'80's, anything goes) or, heaven forbid, Group 10 with SVRA.

If you run somewhat more conservative "riveted" flares or "eyebrows" over the rear wheels, you may run in class 8 BS.

If you run a straight-fendered car, you won't have any problem, and if you run a 1750 with no flares, you'll FOR SURE be in Group 3 (like Sam Cummings car)

IMHO, VSCDA spec is so subjective that more and more sanctioning bodies are discriminating against that spec.

If you prepare to SVRA spec, you can run advantageously in SVRA, VRG AND VSCDA.

bsedan.com and twofivechallenge are West Coast-only deals... All vintage clubs are really local...

Just depends on who you want to run with...

[italcarguy]

Lemme ask you this.... How are your fenders right now? If they are not rusty, why would you want to cut up a perfectly straight body? There does not seem to be an advantage to running wider flares. If anything, put a rear GTA wheel arch on it like you see on some of the old T/A GTA's. My GTA has 225/50-14 all the way around and it just has the rear wheel arch. Yes, 225/50-14's don't rub up front even being as low as it is. On my GT Jr., I can go as big as a 205/60-14. All I had to do was fold in the inner lip on the rear fender. ZERO cosmetic change. I've always though GTA's and GTV's have looked a bit goofy with huge flares and little 7" wide wheels. Kinda looks like they are running on donut spare's. Also, a lot of clubs don't like those huge flares cuz they came later on. With the GTA rear arch, all you need to do is pull out a copy of GTA homologation papers and that should satisfy them. Just more things for you to think about...

[Tigaman]

Agreed, Anthony! Even the most conservative groups in your neck of the woods (CSRG and SOVREN) allow those.

Eric, the best looking cars (IMHO) present were the non-flared cars of Rob Davenport (Red/silver #22) and Pat Boova (Yellow RHD #92). Rob was running 225/50-14 Kumho V700 Victoracers and Pat was running 225/50D-14 Hoosier Street TD's.

-Peter

[turbolarespider]

The fenders are very repairable- the problems lie with the common problem with the rocker/ fender area- those patch panels are quite common, I know that. And I will also tell you that fixing that will be easier than the 4 broken fiberglass parts that I have.

OTOH- my gold car (neither of you two have seen it, others here have) had FRONT clearence problems last year at NHIS- when we went across the track from infield to outfield, it hit pretty hard, and touched the tire. I'm pretty sure that rolling the fender lips in would fix it, but it's also a data point.

Bear in mind, the boss (not me) likes the look even more than I do. I know when I look at a well prepared car that is really fast, it has very little to do with the body style, but how well the car was put together.

For the SVRA races- I know I would try to go to Mid-Ohio, and would try to attend Watkins Glen every once in a while. But the majority of my track time will be at Gingerman and Grattan.

Oh, one thing that barely matters for "which group" is that I will also be autocrossing the car- I already have a class picked out, and body does not matter for this. I know that dual purpose cars are not as fast, but I autocross 3 times for every day at the track, so it's a lot of seat time for Ines and I. Basically, that means that the engine will be broader on the power range AND it will have a "street" box in it (probably a fabricated "semi-close" ratio box).

Peter, do you run HSR? Are they more or less than SVRA? Also- will it matter a lot that neither of my engine choices ever was sold in the early 105 car that I have?

You guys are a ton of help.

Eric

[eshanabrook]

It was great there were so many GTV's within a few seconds of each other at the Glen, with a variety of configurations. SVRA seems to be the standard. While a SVRA Bsedan car doesn't strictly conform to the '73 SCCA (or earlier) it seems they and others are allowing the fender flairs (riveted). Any of the GTV's at the glen (from what I saw) could run HRG or VRG on the east coast, given the driver has an SCCA license. I run the radial Hoosier because that's what the SCCA historics (HRG) allows and is the prevalent tire in that series. 205's are the biggest I've been able to fit in the stock fenders, but I saw some cars at the glen with modified inner rear fenders.

If I were to build my car starting today I'd go with flares at least in the rear. However, the body work on my car was very good when I got it so didn't entertain the idea of cutting sheet metal. A 1750 is an advantage allowing you to run in SVRA group 3 and HRG-2 perhaps others. Problem is the 1750's are becoming scarce. You saw several holes in blocks at the Glen. While it hasn't happened to me (knock knock) I'd rather do that to a block when I've got several spares in the basement.

A car that gives you more flexibility might be a 2L with rear eyebrow flares and a SCCA production legal cage. If you run SCCA legal webers/venturis you can run in EP if there are regional races near you. Venturis could be changed for historic races. This is a good way to get racing track time at a reasonable price. Perhaps not an option for you but something to think about. I know you want to Spica! It depends on what vintage schedule is in your area. The Glen event was my first SVRA event. I have to say while clean racing the group 8 race was one of the most aggressive races I've been in. (A 2L 911 was blocking me a third of the way down the straight.) In Vintage, engine prep is wide open. '73 and earlier Bsedan allowed any piston, cam, valves etc. what your budget will allow.

Peter, I had you and Brian in my sights in the Alfa race, a few more laps...

Eliot

[Lawtonmk]

Strictly speaking, you can't run 50 series tires of any brand in SVRA Group 3, and the only allowed radials are Toyo, Yokohama and Kumho in 55 or 60 series. However, there were many cars at the Glen that were not compliant with many of the rules. It was still a fun event until the Elva/locomotive ran out of talent in front of me and I guessed wrong.

[Tigaman]

Eric, HSR and HRG are MUCH more open than most of what you saw at the Glen. Mr. Fog's Dzus-mounted fenders, dry-sump and Electromotive are a perfect fit at HSR! It is clear that at this time, non-homologated engines are permitted in the early shell for nearly any Midwest or Eastern racing series (VSCDA, VRG, HRG, SVRA, HSR, MWCSCC) and realistically, Eliot has raised a great point. If the car is cosmetically consistent and acceptable to SVRA (thereby VSCDA, but not always vice versa) and has an SCCA-legal cage, window net, fire system (most vintage bodies only require a handheld), belts and carbs, you can do as I do and stick on slicks and run E Production (I finished fifth out of eleven EP cars at the National at VIR in August ) in SCCA Club racing or go to WHRRI events close to home... They (Club Racing) removed the draconian 34mm choke restriction last year for the 2-liter cars in E Production, thank God!

Michael, while it is true that SVRA states that Group 3 cars are supposed to have a minimum 55 series tire (and Group 8 is permitted a minimum of 45 series), Group 3 is really now the bastion of open-top sports cars and earlier sports coupes (P1800). SVRA has been moving more and more of the open-topped cars to Group 3 and leaving Group 8 to the 2 to 2.8 liter coupes (Alfa/Datsun/Porsche) in the last several years and I would expect to see 50 aspect ratio tires on more and more of the Group 8 emigres.

Eliot, I am impressed with your car, your local knowledge and your driving (as well as your continued support of Spica ), but Stark and I were putting on a nice show in the Alfa race! We would have picked it up, eventually... We did go MUCH quicker in the Group 8 race, however. Too bad I started from grid position 54 due to my gravel trap finish in the qualifier!

A thoroughly entertaining discussion!

-Peter

[genericwood]

Eliot, of course you know that the only reason you got by me in the Alfa race was because I chose the wrong side to try to get by Rod Beer in the esses and you slipped by ! I was ready to get you back when I lost oil pressure. Or maybe not, but at least it would have been fun trying!

Erik Wood

Quote:

Originally Posted by eshanabrook It was great there were so many GTV's within a few seconds of each other at the Glen, with a variety of configurations. SVRA seems to be the standard. While a SVRA Bsedan car doesn't strictly conform to the '73 SCCA (or earlier) it seems they and others are allowing the fender flairs (riveted). Any of the GTV's at the glen (from what I saw) could run HRG or VRG on the east coast, given the driver has an SCCA license. I run the radial Hoosier because that's what the SCCA historics (HRG) allows and is the prevalent tire in that series. 205's are the biggest I've been able to fit in the stock fenders, but I saw some cars at the glen with modified inner rear fenders. If I were to build my car starting today I'd go with flares at least in the rear. However, the body work on my car was very good when I got it so didn't entertain the idea of cutting sheet metal. A 1750 is an advantage allowing you to run in SVRA group 3 and HRG-2 perhaps others. Problem is the 1750's are becoming scarce. You saw several holes in blocks at the Glen. While it hasn't happened to me (knock knock) I'd rather do that to a block when I've got several spares in the basement. A car that gives you more flexibility might be a 2L with rear eyebrow flares and a SCCA production legal cage. If you run SCCA legal webers/venturis you can run in EP if there are regional races near you. Venturis could be changed for historic races. This is a good way to get racing track time at a reasonable price. Perhaps not an option for you but something to think about. I know you want to Spica! It depends on what vintage schedule is in your area. The Glen event was my first SVRA event. I have to say while clean racing the group 8 race was one of the most aggressive races I've been in. (A 2L 911 was blocking me a third of the way down the straight.) In Vintage, engine prep is wide open. '73 and earlier Bsedan allowed any piston, cam, valves etc. what your budget will allow. Peter, I had you and Brian in my sights in the Alfa race, a few more laps... Eliot

[turbolarespider]

Interesting, indeed.

And somewhat confusing, too. Not your posts, mind you, but the rules that I downloaded...

I downloaded parts of the SVRA rules, and a few things kind of stand out.

First the classes:

The GTV can be in:
Group 3/BS- listed as GT, GTA, GTV (1570, 1779)
Group 8/RS- Listed as - *Alfa Romeo (the * means special guidelines that I'll get to later
Group 8/TU- GTA, GTV, Ti Berlina (1779, 1962).

Here's the first conflict, you'll note that the 1779 GTV is listed twice... Note, I'm assuming 3/BS implies B-Sedan (since C-Sedan is Group 1, which I didn't print for the 1300), but Group 8/TU is actually NAMED "Historic Sedands: Trans-Am U-2 liter, SCCA B-Sedan" Interesting.

Now, I actually think this conflict is cleared up in the supplemental Regulations, except that Sam Cummings ran the Kwecht car in Group 3!!

Looking at the SVRA Supplemental Regulations for the GTV's, the ONLY group 3 car listed is the GTA- 1570cc, although, I would imagine that any 1600 sedan could run there.

The 1779cc motor is listed as Group 8- TU or RS- NO group 3 at all. hmmm.
The 1962cc motor is Group 8- TU or RS- kind of obvious for that one.

So, where does the 1779cc GTV really go? Group 8 or Group 3? Mind you, this may be rather acedemic for me, since, as Eliot pointed out, 1750 motors are getting rare/expensive. But, it's still something to think about.

Especially since weight is listed at 1#/cc, so the car gets to weigh either 1800lb or 2000lb, depending on the motor. 2000lb is easier to hit, no doubt. (side note- Mike Besic's car was ~70lb underweight! Can you believe he got that thing to close to 1700lb?? Awesome!!! He added weight Sunday morning)

Now, lets change the focus back to the Fenders. You are going to love this one, Peter. At the bottom of the Supplemental Reg page has this little tidbit:

Permitted in class (RS)
-Fiberglass air dam or front spoiler
-Homologated alternate bodywork as appropriate as supplied by Autodelta, etc. (i.e. GTAm)

That's kind of interesting, isn't it? Looks like the flairs are, indeed, legal.

One other thing it notes, that makes me curious- it appears that a fiberglass front hood and trunk lid are not legal. Bummer. I'll prepare both, anyway.

Time to discuss.

I'll have to see if there are more with the * listing in RS.

Eric

[eshanabrook]

We’ve successfully hijacked Eric’s thread, sorry about that. Erik that was a great race, I wondered what happened to you. The run up the S’s with you and Rod was spectacular. He got slowed up for some reason and you went left me right, three GTV’s side by side.

Thanks for the comments Peter. I'm happy I can run with you guys with my Spica science fair project. There were so many pretty GTV's what fun.

Eliot

[Tigaman]

Eliot's right, too much fun bench racing!

Eric, all I can tell you is that there is a method to Jack's madness. The more conservatively (read historically correct) cars are being moved to Group 3, the more "current" cars are staying in Group 8. I don't know too many people that weren't running fiberglass hood and trunk lids... I also know that Tom Turner is the master of Speed Deception, with his GTV down under 1850. Heck, Hugh's GTA Junior isn't anywhere close to that! Oh well!

[turbolarespider]

Gotcha- Tom really tried to convince me of avoiding the GTAm flairs, as none were homologated in the US. Should have heard him when I mentioned a SPICA injected TS motor, but that's a different story.

Copying what Tom "dictates" will be reasonably easy, as one of his friends, Hugh Nichols, lives in Toledo. And I have his e-mail for clarification.

Still want to run SPICA, as I'm nuts...

We will see how the condition of the fenders plays out, but, like I said, it may be a mute point.

At least I have a place to start.

Thanks for all of the help!

Eric

[genericwood]

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbolarespider (side note- Mike Besic's car was ~70lb underweight! Can you believe he got that thing to close to 1700lb?? Awesome!!! He added weight Sunday morning) Eric

[turbolarespider]

Before I start cutting anything, I need to see how good the fenders are that I have. Most of the issue will come down to money- while I've told Peter that I'd love to be able to run this chassis in the GRM challenge, it's also a major consideration in building the car.

I just don't have the $$ to spend on the car's restoration.

If the flairs are no good- well, I can patch the lower fenders pretty well, I think. If they are good, well, then we think about it.

Same with the first motor- with Steck's help, I'm going to build it myself.

I wish I could just drop the chassis off at Roman's, and be done with it...

But, asthetically, favorite version for my team is riveted flairs. Behind that, for me, is a straight car, with the 1/2 moon flair on the back.

We will see.

Eric