Entry Speed

[msiert]

Been going to DE track events for several years now and have learned alot but I'm having a problem of over slowing for the corners.

I realized this last year when I was moved up in the grouping and found most of my time was waving others by. I asked to be moved back down and found that in that group I was being held up by..........................people over slowing for the corners.

What the best way to get past this stumbling block..............Got a track event this next weekend and I want to work on it.

[60sRacer]

Murray,
You've got a nice camera system. Send us some videos of how you prepare for, run, and exit a few corners. Maybe a whole lap?

When you take a corner well, things happen "too fast" until you become comfortable with leaning over the edge. The slower group is probably feathering the brakes as the get emotionally ready for a corner. You need to go in more 'kamakazi' like - that is with more confidence that you can handle the nextthreethingsthathappenallatonce . Most corners have braking markers on the run in. Using them, try holding off braking a few feet deeper each time (you have to remember what the brake mark is for each corner); remember to carry full power until the moment you have to brake HARD.
The side load transition from straight (you've been doing that all the way down the run-in) is sudden, and if you anticipate the scariness of the change, you will brake too early and too softly.

Just remember not to spill the goldfish bowl. Speed scrubbed off by being out of shape is hard to get back. Smoothly, but NOT softly. Be decisive.

Robert

[msiert]

Here's a video of my last event not quite a full lap but does show the problem..................

Video starts at end of corner # 11 and finished at the beginning of corner # 7

YouTube - Black Over White Again

[60sRacer]

Turn 1 - R
Turn 2 - L
Short Straight
Turn 3 - R (fast sweep)
Long Straight (pass white car)
Turn 4 - R end of str.
Turn 5 - L
Turn 6 - R (ess)
Long Straight
Turn 7 - L (fast sweep)
Long Straight
Turn 8 - L [the only one you get nearly right]
Long Straight
End of straight back to turn 1 - R

Did I get this right? Makes for easier comments

Robert

[60sRacer]

Distances are hard to tell from the video, so comments have some assumptions.

1 - 2 pair is a fast ess. White car is too wide for his best line, so it looks like he's leaving you the inside, but you hold back. Braking too early, you don't have much line, nor enough speed to care. You could have stayed on the throttle, dropped inside the white car, and bombed by him with just a little brake into the nearly straight ess. It's an aggressive pass, but he left it open for you, only dropping onto his line when you failed to act.

That put you out of position to exploit the next short straight, where you again could have passed if you were set up for it.

You diddled around till he finally waived you by. then you sucked his doors off.

At the end of the straight you slow way too soon. Drive deep into fast corners - you only need to take a little speed off to get thru this corner, then use the short straight to set up for the 5 - 6 ess, which is a fast pair anyway. YOu enter 4 with less speed that you need in the last half of the ess (6). Read the numbers down the outside - choose where to brake, then go deeper the next time and brake harder.

On 6 you hit the apex way too soon - before the striped curb even, then drift out too early for a good exit. You should hit the inside edge later, then stay inside and hit sweeping turn and positioned just wide enough to power out. Hit the power button harder after apex; its a very fast turn - the power alone will carry you outside for the exit, and you'd have a lot more exit speed.

You fiddle with the throttle in the middle of the turn like you're scared of having too much speed. You sort of do but only because you are out of position.

In the second long straight, you do a good job of keeping on the throttle all the way through turn 7, which is a big very fast sweep left to another straight.

Then at the end of that you blow it by decelerating too early again. You carry this turn well at least, and hit the apex right, and on throttle.

In the last turn, you are off throttle before number 4 marker- that's too soon. Brake later and much harder. Get past number 3 at least, maybe all the way to 2 at full throttle.

Your throttle moves are smooth but way too slow, and you diddle thru your shifts like a freeway driver AND seem to loose braking too. The Alfa TX can do better than that!

On the brakes hard; push into neutral [you don't even need the clutch to do this if you do it just as you release the throttle]; blip throttle just right, flop the pedals to match rpm, push into gear just as the rpm syncs, hammer the throttle.

Drive deeper, brake harder. Downshift just before you need the throttle on again - you should be full throttle as soon as you get into the lower gear. You shift early and ride the lower gear all the way thru some turns. Engine braking disturbs the carefully tuned brake balance, so don't do it. Just stand on the big pedal till you need power. That's what you spent so much on those Outlaw brakes for!

Gotta go back to work. My 2 cents, at least 10% might be right on alternate Tuesdays.....

Robert

[60sRacer]

BTW - nice video. When are you going to get stereo cameras? I have the 3-D glasses already....

Think about putting a slave brake light (led) in the corner of the camera field. I'd love to see where you're actually braking.

R

[msiert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 60sRacer Distances are hard to tell from the video, so comments have some assumptions. Drive deeper, brake harder. Downshift just before you need the throttle on again - you should be full throttle as soon as you get into the lower gear. You shift early and ride the lower gear all the way thru some turns. Engine braking disturbs the carefully tuned brake balance, so don't do it. Just stand on the big pedal till you need power. That's what you spent so much on those Outlaw brakes for! Gotta go back to work. My 2 cents, at least 10% might be right on alternate Tuesdays..... Robert

[60sRacer]

Murray,

I remember Mid America! Boy was that a long time ago. I think I was 22........

Heel-and-toe is badly named. Might have worked on those big racing Bentley's or something. I brake with the ball of my right foot on the right edge of the brake pedal, and roll the foot onto the accelerator pedal with the right edge of the foot and the little toe. The only other way to fit my size 11's in an italian shoe - oops I mean foot well - is to brake with toe and put heel on accel. Then blipping the throttle changes the brake pressure. The opposite- heel on brake (that'll keep braking steady) and toe on accel - my leg can't rotate like that, and there is no room for a whole foot. Getting a good shoe is really important - you need a stiff sole across the ball to little toe area.

One interesting practice technique is to use the LEFT foot for braking, and the right for the throttle - ignoring clutch altogether. Getting out of a gear is easy - lift on the throttle momentarily and pull (or push) the lever out of gear; Then blip the throttle JUST RIGHT as you push (or pull) the lever into the next gear. Get the rpm right and the gear slips in like a hot knife in butter! Never touch the clutch!

Start with the up shifts - they're easier as you only have to hesitate with the lever in neutral for just the right moment as the engine slows and then push (or pull) into the higher gear. You can almost feel the right speed. Just don't drag on the synchro dog teeth. When you do shift, do it decicively!

The old rule applies - do anything 10,000 times and you can get really good at it. I remember seeing a Sprint Speciale run through the night at Daytona 24 HR in the 60's with a frozen clutch; only trouble they had was starting (coast in in neutral made stopping easy). Pit crew had to push the car pretty hard to get enough speed to make a crash shift into first to get away without stalling.

Remember to use the braking signs.

Robert

[PSk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by msiert On the brakes hard; push into neutral [you don't even need the clutch to do this if you do it just as you release the throttle]; blip throttle just right, flop the pedals to match rpm, push into gear just as the rpm syncs, hammer the throttle.

[aralfa8589]

The in car foot pedal shots on the Rolex race this weekend really showed how your right foot is supposed to work.
Brake late, brake hard, be confident.

[60sRacer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSk .... Over hard/deep braking is not necessarily the fastest way through a corner.... Pete

[intune]

The line is the first thing to work on. Nothing else is more important. It is a matter of cubic (meaning many) laps and muscle memory. No substitute for seat time.

Then comes exit speed. If you are 5 mph faster at the exit, that carries for the entire straight.

Last, late braking. You gain the least amount of overall time in late braking. It's a great way to beat people with equal cars and ability, but outbraking doesn't mean a thing if the other guy gets better exit speed or has a cleaner line.

Footwork is critical. You are looking for consistency. If you are working toward using 100% of the car and can't consistently match revs by blipping the throttle on downshifts, you will often get additional engine braking. If you're already at the threshold, where you should ultimately be, you will lock up a wheel and mess up the corner. By the way, heel and toe comes from early race cars with the throttle in the center and brake on the right. In today's cars you use the ball of your foot on the brake and the right part of your foot on the gas. Again, with practice, you can threshold brake and turn your foot to blip the throttle without changing the pressure on the brake pedal. Not easy, but learnable. The NASCAR shots are good as a demonstration.

To your original question, carrying more speed into and through a corner comes with experience and confidence. If you focus on learning the basics correctly, it will come. I recommend you read Skip Barber's Going Faster written by Carl Lopez. Good luck!

[PSk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 60sRacer Very true. But from the video, Murray is waaay far away from that, so I'm encouraging him to drive more like a racer and less like a backwoods highway tourer. I doubt he's at more than 60 - 70% of his car's limits. If he gets to what will feel to him as "on the brink of disaster" he'll likely be at a real 80%. It takes a while to learn how deep the edge is. Robert

[60sRacer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSk Maybe Murray should pick a safe corner and ensure that he is by himself and keep pushing and pushing each lap until he either looses the car or nearly does. t[/i]

[msiert]

I got pretty good at "heel and toe" with my Bug a few years back but my Alfa has had a such long brake peddle that it made it pretty nerve wracking with all the other stuff going on. I found it easier to shift after the main braking was done. Another thing I notice in the video that I did a lot of coasting before I braked.

I have solve the long throw of my brake peddle (loose wheel barrings that caused pad knock back).This track event I'll have much better brakes so heel and toe dwn shifting might be something to try again but I better pratice up on the street first.

I even thought about not down shifting till I was ready to put the peddle down coming out of the corner. That seems like it would be the most natural way to do it.