Entry Speed

[msiert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tifosi Modern 'stock' class engines (usually based on Briggs 4 strokes): roughly 5k~8k for one that'll be competative and last 2-3 races before needing a full on rebuild. Long story short, real karting ain't cheap by any stretch of the imagination.

[Mound Dawg]

Actually I found driving karts (on a proper open track not a piddly little indoor one) was a big help in teaching me track craft. The biggest thing I learned was that being smooth makes you faster. Relatively low-powered karts like the ones you get at karting centres lose a lot of speed if you get them sideways and you find that other people whizz past you like you're stood still.

BTW, Somehow I knew that my comment about autocrossing would bring out all the autocrossers in stout defence of their craft! I'm not saying that autocrossing isn't a legitimate "motorsport" and won't teach you car control. It will and is just as exciting and requires just as much skill as track driving. It's just DIFFERENT.

Most cars will behave completely differently in a tight 30 mph corner than they will in an open corner taken at 90mph plus. My own Fiat is reasonably balanced cornering at 80mph but understeers like a shopping trolley on the limit at 30mph because of the effects of the steering geometry when the wheel is turned more than half a turn in either direction. A Spider isn't that bad (I doubt that there's anything quite that bad!) but I doubt that you'd learn much of relevence by practicing at autocross events.

BTW (part two) like Richard, I too understood that removing the rear bar actually increased traction and therefore creates more UNDERsteer. Maybe it works differently in the US to the way it works here in Yurrup, like the thing about water draining from a sink clockwise in the Northern Hemisphere and anti-clockwise in the Southern.*




















*yes, I know this is an urban myth.

[MeanRedSpider]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mound Dawg *yes, I know this is an urban myth.

[conedriver]

I confess to being one of the autocrossers. I still believe doing this on the right type of course can help, but agree there ain't nothing like getting on a road course and actually driving at speed.

On understeer vs. oversteer; I think the basics are the same here in the states: the only difference between the two conditions is which end of the car goes through the fence first.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mound Dawg ..... BTW, Somehow I knew that my comment about autocrossing would bring out all the autocrossers in stout defence of their craft! I'm not saying that autocrossing isn't a legitimate "motorsport" and won't teach you car control. It will and is just as exciting and requires just as much skill as track driving. It's just DIFFERENT. Most cars will behave completely differently in a tight 30 mph corner than they will in an open corner taken at 90mph plus. My own Fiat is reasonably balanced cornering at 80mph but understeers like a shopping trolley on the limit at 30mph because of the effects of the steering geometry when the wheel is turned more than half a turn in either direction. A Spider isn't that bad (I doubt that there's anything quite that bad!) but I doubt that you'd learn much of relevence by practicing at autocross events. BTW (part two) like Richard, I too understood that removing the rear bar actually increased traction and therefore creates more UNDERsteer. Maybe it works differently in the US to the way it works here in Yurrup, like the thing about water draining from a sink clockwise in the Northern Hemisphere and anti-clockwise in the Southern.* *yes, I know this is an urban myth.

[MeanRedSpider]

You can of course get a car that does both - especially depending upon throttle. Steady application of throttle through a tight corner will provoke understeer (especially, as Mound says, in cars with poor front geo) whereas hard application of throttle, can provoke oversteer.

[Mound Dawg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeanRedSpider whereas hard application of throttle, can provoke oversteer.

[MeanRedSpider]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mound Dawg As for the Coriolis effect-

[msiert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mound Dawg BTW (part two) like Richard, I too understood that removing the rear bar actually increased traction and therefore creates more UNDERsteer.

[Mound Dawg]

Or oversteer, depending on the general handling balance of your car. If you're not going fast enough you won't experience either!

You have to keep pushing until you find out which.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about messing with the handling balance yet, we need to get back to the original point of this thread, "how to make Murray faster" not "how to make Murray's car faster".

[MeanRedSpider]

The only exception I would make to your point about making Murray faster, Jim, is that confidence in your car makes the world of difference. Something that's prone to snap oversteer or ploughs on hopelessly in corners is going to do nothing for your confidence or driving technique. That said, from the videos, I think Murray has quite some way to go and will do well to push a bit harder to find exactly what his car is capable of.

I can't emphasise enough the effect of looking "through" the corner and keeping your head up - glimpse the apex but don't focus on it. The "Going Faster" book mentioned elsewhere in the thread (and the video) are really good for explaining all this stuff.

Cheers

Richard

[turbolarespider]

Quote:

Originally Posted by msiert Hi Eric, The only Autocrossing I have ever done was at your Convention and I felt it was too hard on the engine, drivetrain and tires compared to road racing and TT's. You saw what a horrible job I did. I had a hard time reading the cones, how to manage the speed and how to position the car for the corners.............It was a night mare for me. Things just happen to fast but it was my first Autocross event.......................I'm sure there are Autocrossing events around here but if I'm ever in your neck of the woods I would love to have you give me a lesson. Your a great driver!!!

[60sRacer]

My suggestion for Murray to go to AX events was mainly focused on getting him as much seat time as possible. Unless his track is "in-town", he'd be lucky to get there once a month for practice; OTOH, he should be able to find an AX every weekend (Sat AND Sun around here), so he should be able to get several days even with a big honey do list. From watching his videos, Murray is well into the power his car has - he hammers pretty well on the straights - but he's reluctant to press hard in the corners. I doubt he's getting 60% - 70% of the cornering force his car and tires have.

Murray only mentioned one of-track excursion. I'll bet it was a surprise too. - the car got ahead of him and he was just out of control. That's scary, and the first tendency is to pull back from that edge to avoid that scare again. Don't want to damage the car after all, it's so pretty.

The result is he tip-toes thru corners for several weeks, and ends up not learning anything at all. And he leaves several seconds per lap on the table while learning to drive a good line slowly.

AX is easier to drive at the edge because it is safer to fail - you just slide across the parking lot thru the cones. So he MIGHT be willing to press harder, fail more (i.e. learn more).

Murray: The only way a 35 second AX run is harder on your car than a track is that you are driving harder in the AX. If you want to be gentle on your car, forget TT; get a video game. You can't (word for a small feline)-foot and win.

In practice you need to drive hard enough that you go off a lot. You need it to NOT be a surprise, and you need to learn that you and your car will survive. If you don't know what the other side of the edge is, you will stay scared and drive weakly.

Winners fail a lot more than losers. It's called learning. Do you really want to be a winner? Your competitors will NOT be gentle with you just 'cause you've got a pretty car with shiny paint and no dents.

Do you really want to be a winner?

;D

Robert

[turbolarespider]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 60sRacer Winners fail a lot more than losers. It's called learning. Do you really want to be a winner? Your competitors will NOT be gentle with you just 'cause you've got a pretty car with shiny paint and no dents. Do you really want to be a winner? ;D Robert

[60sRacer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbolarespider ......Came " close to saving it....

[msiert]

I'm just a middle age man that is trying to give it my best shot.

My goal is to woop JohnM and Budsy on their home track at the 2011 Convention TT if that is being a winner well then yes I want to be a winner.

Now JohnM is a natural on the track he has a six sense on how to take a track layout and figure the best way around it. Budsy is an equal to JohnM..........which one of them is faster is a toss up but Budsy is more consistent in that he doesn't spin as much.

At the Chicago convention TT I took 3rd place in the B Class but their was many cars in C Class that had faster times including JohnM. I have a lot of work to do but..............I know what to work on. I will spend the first part of the sessions getting the line down then I will use the throttle better getting out of the corner. I will also work on putting the throttle 100% down everytime I hit the apex through the exit and keeping it there till the next corner.

When I was at the track I data log 2 sessionss which I reviewed today what I found was that there was only a few times I was at 100% throttle most of the time I took the rpms up to 5,900 to 6,000 rpms at 26% to 50% throttle (easily 1,500 rpms less under what the car can do) and most of the time I was in the mid 4,000's rpms after the shifts. Now I planned not to push it before the event but there was not much difference in those logs then the logs I have taken on the country roads down by the river.