07-30-2009, 10:37 PM
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Location: Nebraska
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 Quote:
Originally Posted by turbolarespider
Murray
Can I suggest one more thing to your training schedule. Autocrossing.
From what I see, time and work is what you need. An instructor will help, of course, but just working on the car, knowing how it will react, even on the wrong line, goes a LONG way.
I just don't know if anyone autocrosses near you.
What would be nice is to hook up with you at an event that's not an convention. If you are in Detroit, ever, shoot me a line, and we'll see if there's an event we can work together at (and I'm sure the rest of the folk here would be happy to do so as well- start posting locations...). It's one thing to tell you something- it's another to show you.
Eric
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The only Autocrossing I have ever done was at your Convention and I felt it was too hard on the engine, drivetrain and tires compared to road racing and TT's. You saw what a horrible job I did. I had a hard time reading the cones, how to manage the speed and how to position the car for the corners.............It was a night mare for me.
Things just happen to fast but it was my first Autocross event.......................I'm sure there are Autocrossing events around here but if I'm ever in your neck of the woods I would love to have you give me a lesson. Your a great driver!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by 60sRacer
A's do very well on AX and short races. To get R's to work well (and they will be noticeably better than A's) they have to get hot and stay hot. The Hoosier / Tire Rack notes say five laps just to warm up the R's... That's about where the A's start going away...
You might also try softening or even removing the rear sway bar. I see no sign of your car oversteering. I always liked a little oversteer - it seemed to make faster laps, especially in the slowest corners. The only thing is that you spin out and go off road backwards instead of front. But that's after you found where 11 / 10ths was. (OS only changes which way you slide off).
Robert
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I think the A6's would be better then the R6's for TT's for my Spider in that they heat up faster and for light cars hold up well even in longer lapping sessions. My car weighs in at 2584 lbs w/o a driver that's with the stock seats in. If I pull the a/c compressure and run with one race seat I'm getting in the 2,400 lbs range.
I'm only getting into the high 120's F and low 130's F with the R6's with the A6's I should get the tires hot enough to really stick well. or at least better. May be wrong but I believe I need to get the tires up in the 180 F to get the most out of them?
My plans are to use up the R6's in the next season (2010) and buy fresh meat right before the 2011 Convention in Kentucky................it's a 2 year plan to get ready to woop JohhnM (aka Mouth of the South). 
On disconnecting the rear bar:
The way the car felt at 3/4 speed the suspension was perfect the rear felt planted and there was no sign of understeer, unless things change I feel good that the suspension is set up right at least at the level I'm at now.
If the rear starts to swing out on me I'll take a wrench and unhook it.
I really want to go back to the rubber bushings in the trailing arms (running poly now) but I'm not sure if the new generation of aftermarket bushings are any good. If I did go back the rear would be as soft as it could be and the sway bar would be the last thing left to loosen it up more...................
At this point the front is as stiff as it can be with the 1,200 springs, Koni Yellows, new bushings and a 29 mm sway bar. The goal for the rear is to get it as soft as it can be.
Last edited by msiert; 07-31-2009 at 04:43 AM.
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07-30-2009, 10:48 PM
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I was an oxymoron
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Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: In the shadows of Tahoma
Posts: 2,265
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Murray -
You may find the autocrosses at the upcoming conventions a bit easier for neophytes to navigate, as i believe they will be marking the course with lime. (of course I thought the rallyes in Portland were going to be for neophytes too, until I realized I was driving AWAY from Portland!!!)
__________________
I'd rather be in an Alfa praying to God that we'll make it home, than sitting in a church thinking about my Alfa.
Gordy Hyde
1974 Spider 2000 ~ "Mia" (Carb-free)
1971 Junior Zagato 1750 (1800605) ~ "Zach"
"You see that car? Is it different from all the others? Then it's a Zagato."
~ Elio Zagato
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07-30-2009, 11:08 PM
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Darkside Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicola
Murray -
You may find the autocrosses at the upcoming conventions a bit easier for neophytes to navigate, as i believe they will be marking the course with lime. (of course I thought the rallyes in Portland were going to be for neophytes too, until I realized I was driving AWAY from Portland!!!)
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07-30-2009, 11:25 PM
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Senior Member
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When I was in he eighth grade, I had a spiral-ringed binder that was labeled " Algebra"... the first several pages contained math notes... the next several pages were ball point pen illustrations of Ferrari GTO's, with the proportions dictated by the diameter of the quarters that I used to trace the wheels... the spacing of these tracings dictating the elongation of the GTO...
The more interesting part of the note book was later... as I would randomly squiggle a blind-folded race track... and then add the parallel bounding line to define a race circuit... I would then pencil in the racing line. including braking points, shift points and hammer down acceleration points...
hundreds of pages of this exercise!
So, it's no wonder that I can suss out a new track ... low these many decades later (even without a video game pre-view)!
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OldMaster
Rick Clemente
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07-31-2009, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msiert
If the rear starts to swing out on me I'll take a wrench and unhook it........ The goal for the rear is to get it as soft as it can be.
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Removing the rear bar will increase OVER steer - make the rear swing out more easily. It feels a bit unstable as you get more understeer, but its the fastest way around a slow corner. With more oversteer you can turn in easier, and balance the car on four-wheel drift on exit with the throttle.
It's an easy experiment - just disconnect the link at the end of the trailing arms - two nuts to remove, slide the links off, take a few laps. Don't loose the nuts and washers; use some duct tape to keep the links from flopping around.
For the poly vs rubber tradeoffs on the trailing arms: See if you can find a pair of early 105 trailing arms. They are all the same dimension, but the early bars have a smaller rubber bush at the front end. The replacement trailing arm bushes at IAP and Centerline are all pretty good, though they charge quite a bit more for the small early bush. That way you get a bit more precision location of the axle (with the smaller bush) adn still have the soft roll that keeps the axle well planted.
WRT your AX experience: You should feel like too much is happening way too fast. That's what you want to learn. A 30 second AX run is more turns than two laps of your raceway, and five times faster. Of course you feel lost. How else are you gonna learn?? The good part is you can usually find an AX every weekend, and get 4 or 5 runs, sometimes more. Don't worry about the competition - its a training session on steroids. You WILL get used to the adrenelin rush and learn to drive calmly anyway.
Eventually.
;D
Robert
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07-31-2009, 10:27 AM
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Location: In a warehouse, packing your parts...
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Not sure if I'm missing something here but how is a 30 second hurtle around some cones in a shopping mall carpark going to teach you anything about circuit driving?
I've done some autotests (as we call them here) and never got out of 1st/2nd gear. On racing circuits I use 1st and 2nd to get out of the pitlane then it's 3rd, 4th and 5th from then on until the session ends.
They're two completely different disciplines!
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Jim Spackman
www.alfaholics.com
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07-31-2009, 11:02 AM
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Darth Slacker
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Location: Northern NY, USA
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Isn't driving through cones considered an act of moving a car at as quickly a pace as possible through a specific circut?
1) aiming through cones is like aiming through corners, only narrower
2) excessive g loading will cause some kind of reaction, be it oversteer or understeer, at 15mph just as well as it will at 105mph.
Only difference is at the slower speed, you don't fly off as far and aren't as likely to damage the car in a huge way if you bash something.
About the only real distinction is how you achive and use drift: slow speeds take bhp to produce it while fast speeds use the inertia, but fast or slow require a decent amount of throttle control and once actually into a drift, the car doesn't care how fast its actually moving. Brakes still get used with aggression, the car must be balanced by the driver in the corners, a proper line must be used to achieve greatness, and you look just as retarded falling off at 15mph as you can at 85mph. Perhaps moreso at the slower speeds.....
Last edited by Tifosi; 07-31-2009 at 11:06 AM.
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07-31-2009, 11:19 AM
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Yes, they are different. But Murray is an inexperienced race driver, and does not have intimate connection with his car. AX is a GREAT way to learn control at the limits of your own car, and learn to keep up with the car.
Besides, a turn is a turn. Line, set-up, entry, braking, turn-in, apex, throttle, drift, exit, set up for the next turn. They come quick and fast in AX, and roughness or thinking behind your car are punctuated by flying cones - and no other risks! There are good AX drivers that can't run decent laps on a big track, but there are very few race track drivers that can't tango on an AX course.
If you can't handle an AX run well, I'll bet you stay in the D-Flight on the track.
Even more important, if you want to get to good from novice as a racer, seat time is a must. Track time is hard to come by. But you can find an AX every weekend somewhere, and get plenty of runs. That's my point with Murray. Further, a well set-up AX course takes a lot of the "Car" factors out. A good driver can out drive a very hot car with a modest driver.
Robert
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07-31-2009, 01:24 PM
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Can I add my experiences here as a relatively new race driver - in my second season (currently 2nd in class in my championship - 8th overall ex 33 scoring entries).
I was lucky enough to have a day's free tuition with Mark Hales (see Mark Hales - racing driver, writer and publisher - some fantastic pics on there) before I started racing. One of the key things Mark taught me was to have a PLAN for each corner ie know when you're going to brake, when you're going to turn in, when you're going to apply the power. Only by knowing what you planning to do will you know how successful it was and how to adjust it. Too many people arrive at a corner and make it up as they go through (that was me). By the time I had taken on what I'd learned, I was giving Evos a hard time through the corners in a VW Passat 1.9 tdi fitted with taxi tyres.
Personally, I don't buy the frantic activity inside the car. Smooth, positive and purposeful is better. Many of my competitors could cut their lap times if they did this. As I get more experienced, I'm slowly but surely catching much faster and more powerful cars - a 210bhp Escort ought to destroy my 170bhp GT.
"Sighting" the corner has been mentioned but not emphasised enough to my mind. Looking through the corner up the next straight with your head up will do so much for your cornering. As has been mentioned, where your eyes look, your body/car will follow (as is the case with so many dynamic sports - snowboarding etc).
"hinting" - applying a small amount of lock before the main turn, will prepare your tyres for the corner and aid positioning of the car.
I didn't like sprinting (the longer version of AX) for learning. There's too much time between runs for you to over-analyse what you did well and did wrong. Nothing better than to come right around to the corner again to adjust what you learned the lap before.
I'll post some video from my car.
Richard
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GTJ '70 - GTA Replica
2000 Spider Veloce '72
2000 Spider Veloce '75
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07-31-2009, 01:43 PM
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Senior Member
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Here's a couple
Watch out for Rob Giordinelli (a bit of an Alfa-driving legend) make a guest appearance at the end of the second video as he (attempts to) lap me in his stunningly quick Lotus 26R (nearly beating the Classics lap record as he does so - setting a new class lap record). I had Roberto critique my technique based on these videos. He said my lines were good, not to change down through the gears and to change later before the corner so that the change doesn't affect my braking.
Richard
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GTJ '70 - GTA Replica
2000 Spider Veloce '72
2000 Spider Veloce '75
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08-01-2009, 07:47 AM
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George Schweikle
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Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Lexington, KY
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Jim, and others,
I hope you don't take this as a thread highjack; my comments are intended to illustrate how autocross driving can assist with road course driving. There are different concepts for autocross; from the arm wrenching driving through a tortured narrow course to the "MRC" (miniature road course) style. The biggest sanctioning body in the U.S. is the Sports Car Club of America (SCCA) whose regions conduct over 1200 events each year. SCCA events are almost always MRC style with relatively flowing courses wide enough to require accurate car placement, linked corners, and requiring the driver to find the correct line. These are the elements that carry over to road racing, and some very successful professional drivers got their start in autocrossing.
Autocross courses at the Alfa Romeo Owners Club national conventions vary between the two design extremes, with the Detroit chapter being very active in promoting, and conducting, good autocross events for their conventions and others. The AROC autocross rules used to specify 10 ft. course width, and 35 ft. minimum between single file slalom cones. Some course designers assume this as a requirement and what results is a very tight course that isn't much fun to drive. At this year's national convention, I proposed a change to SCCA course rules: 15 ft. course width and 45 ft. slalom gate spacing, and was very pleased to have this accepted.
As my avatar indicates, I am an avid autocrosser. To me, a good course doesn't have narrow width that requires one to drive one specific line. A course should be 15, 20 ft (or more) wide, and allow the driver to find the best line through the cones. There should not be any extremely tight first gear turns turns and the acccursed "stop box" should only be used for safety reasons. Such a course will allow a novice driver to learn some basic elements of course driving at a speed that will not penalize for mistakes.
So Murray, find someone in your area that runs more open course design autocrosses and go get some more seat time...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mound Dawg
Not sure if I'm missing something here but how is a 30 second hurtle around some cones in a shopping mall carpark going to teach you anything about circuit driving?
I've done some autotests (as we call them here) and never got out of 1st/2nd gear. On racing circuits I use 1st and 2nd to get out of the pitlane then it's 3rd, 4th and 5th from then on until the session ends.
They're two completely different disciplines!
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__________________
George Schweikle
Co-chairman 2011 AROC Convention: ALFAS IN THE BLUEGRASS, Lexington, KY
1976 Spider (Dedicated Autocrosser, "SPICA, No Carbs")
1991 Spider Veloce (Retirement cruiser)
Scuderia Non Originale
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08-01-2009, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrclem
I would then pencil in the racing line. including braking points, shift points and hammer down acceleration points...
hundreds of pages of this exercise!
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In the past for new tracks I have draw what I thought what the line, brake points etc. should be but found once I got to the track what I thought was right................turned out not to be.
If you have a good vantage point I think another good way is to watch what the good drivers are doing or to ask them what they are doing in the corners your having trouble with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 60sRacer
Murray,
Removing the rear bar will increase OVER steer - make the rear swing out more easily. It feels a bit unstable as you get more understeer, but its the fastest way around a slow corner. With more oversteer you can turn in easier, and balance the car on four-wheel drift on exit with the throttle.
Robert
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This is just the oposite of what I thought..........I thought by loosing the rear end up you would be making it stick more?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mound Dawg
Not sure if I'm missing something here but how is a 30 second hurtle around some cones in a shopping mall carpark going to teach you anything about circuit driving?
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My main beaf with Autocrossing is "I feel" that it is harder on the car then road circuits are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tifosi
Isn't driving through cones considered an act of moving a car at as quickly a pace as possible through a specific circut?
1) aiming through cones is like aiming through corners, only narrower
2) excessive g loading will cause some kind of reaction, be it oversteer or understeer, at 15mph just as well as it will at 105mph.
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I went to a Kart ranch yesterday with my son these are not the kid type karts, these things were fast!!! You needed a helmet and a valid drivers lic. to drive.
It reminded me of autocrossing. I did just as poorly as I did at the autocrossing but what a rush. There was a trophy case with dozens of trophy's it look like they were events you could enter in as you get better?
They have memberships rates that aren't to bad. Would this help me on the track like Autocrossing? Heck you can learn on someones elses equipment! They have instructor's and classes too.
Maybe I'll sell the Alfa and build a Kart Sounds like a cheap sport?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeanRedSpider
Can I add my experiences here as a relatively new race driver - in my second season (currently 2nd in class in my championship - 8th overall ex 33 scoring entries).
I'll post some video from my car.
Richard
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Wow............Great video's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by conedriver
Jim, and others,
There are different concepts for autocross; from the arm wrenching driving through a tortured narrow course to the "MRC" (miniature road course) style. The biggest sanctioning body in the U.S. is the Sports Car Club of America (SCCA) whose regions conduct over 1200 events each year. SCCA events are almost always MRC style with relatively flowing courses wide enough to require accurate car placement, linked corners, and requiring the driver to find the correct line. These are the elements that carry over to road racing, and some very successful professional drivers got their start in autocrossing.
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I'll check it out...............
Last edited by msiert; 08-01-2009 at 11:46 PM.
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08-01-2009, 03:32 PM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Inverness, Scotland, UK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 60sRacer
Murray,
Removing the rear bar will increase OVER steer - make the rear swing out more easily. It feels a bit unstable as you get more understeer, but its the fastest way around a slow corner. With more oversteer you can turn in easier, and balance the car on four-wheel drift on exit with the throttle.
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Removing the rear ARB will decrease oversteer. In fact the most common changes are to INCREASE the front ARB thickness and REMOVE the rear ARB (with the possible exception of running on slicks). 105s tend to oversteer naturally so don't need any help in this area. Oversteer is vastly preferable to understeer but near neutral. And fitting a Watts (or similar) is the best handling mod I've made to my 105 and got some 1000lb front springs
__________________
GTJ '70 - GTA Replica
2000 Spider Veloce '72
2000 Spider Veloce '75
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08-01-2009, 04:50 PM
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Darth Slacker
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Northern NY, USA
Posts: 8,675
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msiert
I went to a Kart ranch yesterday with my son these are not the kid type karts, these things were fast!!!
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Quote:
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Would this help me on the track like Autocrossing?
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Wheeltime is wheeltime, and if nothing else, it would help you learn assessment and evaluation of braking, entry, exit and general line strategy.
Then again, even a good computer simulator like iRacing can go a long way towards that.
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Maybe I'll sell the Alfa and build a Kart Sounds like a cheap sport?
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ROFLMFAO
You dream your little dream about karts and 'cheap'. 
Modern 'stock' class engines (usually based on Briggs 4 strokes): roughly 5k~8k for one that'll be competative and last 2-3 races before needing a full on rebuild.
Rolling chassis: 10k
Electronic gizmonics like tach and such: 1k
Tires: $50-$100 each with a 2-10 race lifespan depending on surface and type of racing (dirt and oval tires last much longer)
Wheels for said tires: $50 each
Bodywork: $300-$500
Seat that fits you properly: $150-$250 (or a generic for less than $100)
Fuel: Methanol is pushing aorund $8 a gallon 'round these parts, and you can go through a gallon per race event, if the track is little. (roughly 2.5mpg in the Briggs class stuff)
Rebuild if you know how to do it yourself: about $100-$150 (hell, a connecting rod costs $80 by itself)
Rebuild if you have to farm it out: about $500~$600 a pop (remember, 2~3 races between 'freshenings'. Work that out over a seasons time...)
Road race 4 wheel disc brake kit if you're doing that sort of thing: $500~$1000 depending on actuation configuration and if you use a bias balance knob rig or not
Whiz bang adjustable front end components (ride height, caster camber and toe adjustable without fidgeting washers or whatever): $500 or more if you want 'active' weight jackers that you can adjust on the fly
Axle Gears: $50 each
Clutch packs: $50-$100
Drive gears: $50-$100 each
Intermediate drive gear if running a 2 stroke with reduction: $100
Engine mounts: $50
Good engine mounts: $100+
Suit, helmet, gloves, shoes, neck brace: say $400
Trailer: $ (lots)
Tools: $ (lots more)
Plus any number of other sundry items, then double everything mechanical if you wanted to go 2 stroke shifter instead of a stock class (there's engines out there that cost in excess of $12,000, and they sell a LOT of them)
Then there's entry fees to consider.
15 years ago it cost like $20,000 to maintain one kart running at one track once a week for a summer season.
Long story short, real karting ain't cheap by any stretch of the imagination.
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08-01-2009, 09:08 PM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,812
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeanRedSpider
I'm not sure I follow any of this.
Removing the rear ARB will decrease oversteer. In fact the most common changes are to INCREASE the front ARB thickness and REMOVE the rear ARB (with the possible exception of running on slicks). 105s tend to oversteer naturally so don't need any help in this area. Oversteer is vastly preferable to understeer but near neutral. And fitting a Watts (or similar) is the best handling mod I've made to my 105 and got some 1000lb front springs
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Erik
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