Which steering rack for 75/Milano trackable street car?

[AR4me]

Ok, time to collect some info and input on steering for the Godzilla Milano.

Supposedly, this car is properly termed a trackable street car - according to BigSwede

Engine will be 3.7 liter 24 valve V6 putting out 300-350 HP. Suspension will be helper coil-over, i.e. maintain the torsion bars. Brakes will be plenty big, outboard rear.

Now, this is NOT a daily driver, but for fun and the track. I have decided to ditch the power steering to save the weight, powerloss - gotta preserve what little power we got..., and to pump my anemic biseps.

So, options are:
1. Get a GTV6 non power steering rack, but some (Chip) mentioned it has more turns lock-to-lock :-(
2. Run a Milano (PS rack) as non PS, but I recall seeing something about that not being recommended due to seals, I think. Chip mentioned leaving some resiual fluid in the rack for lubrication.
3. Get a non PS rack with even fewer turns lock-to-lock (to really build some biseps). Seriously, BigSwede, I heard someone saying you may know a source?

Finally, can someone in Europe recall if the earlier 75 came as non PS? Would such a rack hold up to this application?

Thoughts, suggestions?

Jes

[nizam]

Jes, what is the power loss due to the power steering? Is it in the order of 1-10hp, or more?

Would you not have no loss at all when pointing straight ahead (all valves closed) under full throttle, down the straightaway?

I only bring this up because the Milano PS is very nice for the car. Outside of the usual 14-year-old-car-part syndrome, i.e. original racks leak, easily fixable by putting in a rebuilt one, it is very nicely weighted and in my experience, is much quicker than a GTV6 rack.

Even with my now-wimpy 200hp 164S engine, I don't think I'm handicapped because I have power steering. I can't imagine your 3.7-liter monster would have any trouble stirring up some power steering fluid. As long as you will be operating it in its usual range (idle - 7,000 rpm) it will work fine. No?

[AlfaRacer75]

The draw to non-ps for me was just to simplify the 24v installation. I don't mind manual steering and I didn't want to fabricate the stuff to use a power steering pump. The pump is kinda heavy too.

By the way... the GTV6 rack isn't that much slower than a Milano. GTV6 rack is 3.6 turns lock to lock, and the Milano is 3.3. I don't notice very much difference between the two in quickness or effort (gvt6 rack vs. milano rack with no pump). Both feel slow as hell compared to the 2.5 turns of Shannon's S2000.

[genius]

Jes...

You could investigate Tar-Ox....I'm pretty sure they did a non PS quick rack !!!

(they've got conversion kits for all sorts of cars & I'm pretty sure that the 75 was one of them)

[Mezevenf]

I have an 86 built 75, it has power steering.

I think all 75's came with power steering stock.

[AR4me]

I do prefer to keep the car "simple" - less things to break and to fix. No ABS, no AC, no PS - of course weight etc also factors in. Particularly, this is all weight off the slightly nose heavy V6 milano. Finally, like Chip, I don't mind manual steering.

Long time ago I owned a 155 (96 model with the wider fenders and then new 16V TS engine). I believe the quick steering was considered quite an accomplishment at the time for a street car - very few turns, lock-to-lock. Don't remember it exactly, could it have been 2.2? I really liked it, but initially it required some getting used to.

I'm still not convinced that some of the early entry level 75 or maybe turbo versions didn't come as non-PS. But then, the steering would probably be a tad slower, like the GTV6.

I'll try look around for info on Tarox.

Jes

[nizam]

My 155V6 has 2.2 turns lock-to-lock. It is quite a joy to use!

The Tar-Ox Quickrak kit is non-PS and has 2.1 turns lock-to-lock. I saw them in the Demon Tweeks catalog for 1998 and 1997 but I no longer see them offered.

The Alfa 75 1.6, sold in Italy and some other eastern European markets did not have power steering (yes, 1.6 liters of pure mayhem!) As a sidenote, these cars had the shortest final drive of all 75's ... 4.53:1 !!! I think the top speed is about 108mph -- great for short tracks. If Jes put one in his 3.7-liter monster, he'd be at top speed in all corners at Willow with the exception of turns 3, 4, 5 and 6!!

[nizam]

BTW - when I do eventually install my 24v into the racecar, it will use the 164 PS pump. Lighter, and so far has had no history of leaking.

[Greg Gordon]

There were three different power steering racks installed in Milano/75s. One type is not rebuildable and if it's leaking must be replaced or converted to manual. I notice almost no difference in steering effort between a GTV6 and a Milano. They are so close that a GTV6 with a well lubed rack and good tie rod ends etc. steers more easily then an Milano with 100k plus miles, at least that's my experience.

According to ZF (the people who made the steering rack) you can convert the power steering rack to manual, I have a picture of a completed unit on page 6 of my site. www.oldebottles.com.

[BigSwede]

TarOx rack is discontinued.

My 75 T doesn't have PS, arms all over the place when trying to correct fast, too "slow" IMHO.
So yes the 75 came without PS.

The PS on the 75's suck (IMO) when you drive seriously, it's not fast enough and you can get pump-catch when turning the wheel fast. Not good.

My plan is to take a PS rack from a 75 TS and gut out the PS valves and such, fill it with grease and drive as normal. Should work well for a Street car.
The PS system weighs a TON!

Track car on the other hand, a quicker rack is really nice to have. I have one on the GTV actually and I love it.

[AR4me]

I want the Tarox 2.1 non PS kit! Anyone? Someone, please...

So, the 75TS PS is quicker than the non PS 75T? BigSwede, what are the lock-to-lock turns of those two?

Jes

[75evo]

I love the 75 PS rack. Best weighted PS rack I've ever driven, and the feel is very consistent over bumps etc. Have a '96 155 V6 wide track as well, lighter steering feel than 75, and the response is good as well.

But I think the feel still goes to the 75's PS setup and I guess in an endurance race it will be less tiring, especially if you have to fight with understeer. PS helps lighten the load on your arms.

I think Demon Tweeks in UK may have it. Or you can check out the alfa racing group on yahoo groups. If I am not mistaken someone there may have installed a Tarox rack.

What about going with a small steering wheel? Doesn't really solve the whole issue, but may make the steering feel like it's a quick rack.

[BigSwede]

Jes: The PS rack is quicker then the non-PS, I don't reallt have any numbers on it but on a 1-10 imaginary scale the PS rack is a 3, the non-PS is 4 and the quickrack is 8.



75evo: For endurance racing I'd stick with the PS too I think, but you should at least try a rack without PS.
Small steering wheel sucks, tried it - hated it. Got a 350mm one now and a short rack instead.

[AR4me]

Quote:

but on a 1-10 imaginary scale the PS rack is a 3, the non-PS is 4 and the quickrack is 8

[junglejustice]

For Jes and I there were "other" reasons for seeking to drop the PS from our setups...

The obvious points of weight loss and a faster turn-in, lock-to-lock aside, it allowed us to run a better belt setup. Initially I was going to run this motor in a street car with P/S and A/C and Dawie has set them up like that before. I was also going to do 164 pumps like Nizam was suggesting. (I have had zero issues with the units in my LS....)

Then Dawie sort of "suggested" that I get serious about my direction for this car and I decided on a setup primarily for track events (less draw on power too... ) From there, the benefits of running AR parts with an all-serpentine setup were clear. With some of the 24 valve conversions done here to date, the guys had to go with Milano/GTV6 style pulley setups and regular V-belts and this was not for me...