10-11-2004, 09:34 AM
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p/s I like the new shiny stuff too, but sometimes, used stuff from high-end performance cars work really well, like this 944 S2 caliper, only $50 ...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...category=33563 |
10-12-2004, 08:34 AM
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Location: Houston, TX
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When my bias valve started leaking, I replaced it with a proportioning valve from an early GTV6 because it reportedly sends more braking force to the rears relative to the Milano's bias valve. I wonder if that would work for this application.
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Michael Keith
Houston, TX
'87 Milano Gold
91 164S
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10-12-2004, 12:14 PM
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Location: 58 Deg. North
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Just throw the proportioning valve away and buy an adjustable from Tilton or Wilwood, I got one and it is very good. Recommended.
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Mats Strandberg
GTV 2000 -77 Pics <= These are picture links you know...
75 Turbo -87 *sold* Pics <=
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10-13-2004, 07:26 PM
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Location: Granolaville, Washington
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What I got:
8-Pot 325 Fronts
4-Pot 288 Rears
My fat arse is 6'4 265 pounds and just in the event that I don't get the car down below 2500 pounds, I think that the overkill brakes would be very welcome.... (I am plugging in 300 plus horses up front - I'll need it) and I think that the heavier V6 engine upfront warrants the stopping power)
No Mats, no bruning wallets - I am actually on a tight budget here.
The setup above came to me for LESS money that what MO'VIT wanted JUST for their front setup. My prices included the rear setup and I won't even mention Brembo's quote...
Pads: Ferodo - What else? (Good enough to stop the Mercedes midsize trucks sold in SA, good enough for me....
As AR4me said, I won't be running a brake booster, so I can use the power... Believe me - I DRILL THESE f'n things and I don't lock up. My problem is more the incoming horse power and then also the issue of major elevation changes in some of our track where there is a great deal of trail-braking....
No more fade. No more warping. PERIOD.
I will be running a twin-Gerling (with twin masters) setup, but with an adjustable front rear-bias.
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Full-Race 3.7 Litre 24v Milano; Street/Track 3.0 Litre 24v Milano Verde; 2.0 TS '73 GTV; 6-speed 3.45 litre 24v Street 164 LS/Super; '06 Scion XB - Runs! 
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10-14-2004, 11:10 AM
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Ah, balance bar... Everything else would be quite idiotic with that setup.
If you want the #1 pads you go to Performance Friction, nothing else comes close.
Don't compare stuff with Movit, they are EXPENSIVE! 
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Mats Strandberg
GTV 2000 -77 Pics <= These are picture links you know...
75 Turbo -87 *sold* Pics <=
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11-27-2004, 02:11 AM
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Hi JJ
With the Praggia calipers you've got, what compound of pads can you run with them? are you limited to ferodo? or can you go to padgid/mintex/whatever?
How did you find the pads that you tested in S.A for bite hot and cold?
Let me know!
Cheers
Andrew.b
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11-27-2004, 10:38 AM
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Ferodos;
You can run whatever pads that you want.
Maybe this would be a good thread to post pics of outboard setups...?
Any way, the SA cars ran Ferodo pads... I run Ferod here and love them! I liked the SA setups a great deal!... The "cold" runs were at pretty warm ambient temps as it was summer there, but even then, with "cold-brake" start up temps, grip was even...
Warm, there was NO fade! I loved them!
The 3 racers run Praggias... Yep, they removed those beautiful, red, 4-piston GTA calipers and added Praggias with Ferodo pads... Dawie swears by them. (They are not allowed to increase the number of pistons but they can change the setups....)
We will be running those same 4 piston 2-pad per side setups on the rear of the 2 3.7 Milanos, with 8-piston 4-pad per side Praggias on the front! Ferrodo al the way and US made floating hat rotors all the way.
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Full-Race 3.7 Litre 24v Milano; Street/Track 3.0 Litre 24v Milano Verde; 2.0 TS '73 GTV; 6-speed 3.45 litre 24v Street 164 LS/Super; '06 Scion XB - Runs!
Last edited by junglejustice; 11-27-2004 at 10:51 AM.
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11-27-2004, 10:51 AM
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JJ
I may have been unclear in my post!! What i meant was are there many different brands available to fit the Praggia's?
Is the Praggia based on a brembo or AP pad fitment? or maybe wilwood?
Most mainstream pad manufacturers have a range of fitments for each caliper, but as praggia is new, i wondered what pad "style" it had!
Sounds like there gonna stop well.
Andrew
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11-27-2004, 01:34 PM
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Pad Fitment
AP and Wilwood...
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Full-Race 3.7 Litre 24v Milano; Street/Track 3.0 Litre 24v Milano Verde; 2.0 TS '73 GTV; 6-speed 3.45 litre 24v Street 164 LS/Super; '06 Scion XB - Runs!
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11-27-2004, 02:11 PM
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Excellent!!
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12-06-2004, 06:15 PM
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Hmmm, a few old wives tails in this thread me thinks
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Originally Posted by junglejustice
But look, you pull all of that heat build-up away from the tranny AND the brakes
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you increase stability at the outer edge of the car
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Er, why? because the weight is now located wider? ... ideally all weight should be as low as possible and close to the very centre of the car. Hence why F1 cars now have the fuel tank (cell) behind the driver, thus the major weight of the car (driver, fuel and engine) are all as close as possible to the centre of the car. Thus I can not see this being a real plus as the weight would be further away from the centre of the car.
This highlights one of the negatives of the 75's design, because the engine up one end, and the gearbox at the other, means that we have weight at either end of the car ... which acts like a dumb bell and while perfectly balanced, means that it is not ideal for changing direction. But ofcourse close to the best you can do with the engine location restriction of being in the front.
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and you widen the stance of the rear wheels too!
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Er, what does this have to do with relocating your brakes. Surely this is not related to brakes at all, but wheel offsets or whatever you engineer regarding how the wheel fits to the car.
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You gain larger brakes for the back than what most cars have on the front (290+ mm)
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Yes but you can have even bigger discs if mounted inboard as you do not have to worry about fitting inside a wheel.
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you gain vented rotors, you gain 4-Piston calipers versus 2-Piston calipers, made from T6 billet aircraft quality aluminium and they are anodized (just like some of the bright-coloured computer internals you see) which helps with heat run-off!!!
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Nothing to do with the location, but better quality parts.
Okay ... penny has just dropped, you are selling/marketing a kit . Fair enough and for serious tracking the heat location problem is an issue ... although Sud racers do not have any problems ... they just need better calipers. My old Sud's discs were permanently blue when I sold it  ... obviously getting way to hot, no gearbox seal issues or anything else ... just needed better cooling  .
Love to see a picture of this kit ... I just think some of the justification points are a little questionable, hence I am questioning them.
No offense intended but this whole thread reads like a bunch of school kids sitting around excitedly studying the centre fold in a new Penthouse magazine ... all this talk of 8 pot rear calipers (waste of money), 4 pot rear calipers (still a waste of money unless your car is an IMSA entry), etc. for road cars ... all this talk of fancy brake balance solutions when the only real answer is a proper balance bar pedal box (ie. why spend all this other money and stuff around with short cut balance systems ...) ... next thing will be the neon lights to highlight the calipers
Pete's putting flame suit on ...
ps: Note that the IMSA Alfa 75 appears to outboard rear brakes ... pad change reasons?.
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12-06-2004, 06:34 PM
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Pete,
When you add rotors on the rear hub, you do increase the rear track of your car as much as the thickness of the rotor's hat. Unless you now use wheels with higher offsets.
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12-06-2004, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by 75evo
Pete,
When you add rotors on the rear hub, you do increase the rear track of your car as much as the thickness of the rotor's hat. Unless you now use wheels with higher offsets.
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I guess I'm just finding the hard sell a bit off putting for this feet on the ground Kiwi. The real reason is for temperature control. Even the weight saving due to superior components, does not relate to the disc location ...
Anyway I did not realise that inboard discs on these cars were seen as such a negative ... I know of atleast one very fast NZ car that still runs inboard brakes ... and kicks arse.
Pete
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12-06-2004, 06:53 PM
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Hi Pete,
Yes temperature control is the biggest factor. Second is the insane effort it takes to change rotors, calipers and pads. A lot of us can kick arse with our current setup, we can kick even more arse with outboard rears.  |
12-06-2004, 07:10 PM
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Er, what?
Nobody is Selling a kit here...
This is not a kit. The calipers come from Praggia in South Africa. The floating hat rotors come from a source in California. The pads are Ferodo from a large Mercedes van. We are custom making the brakets....
We bought a couple of sets of 8 piston fronts and 4 pistons rears and we are discussing the advantages of pulling the heat away from the tranny AND I MAINTAIN THAT THIS CONVERSION WILL DO THAT!!!!!
The guys who have done these conversions on Milano/GTV6 and raced them competitively MAINTAIN that you GAIN stability at higher speeds with the rears moved outboard - nobody suggested anything about weight.... If anything, gaining unsprung weight is a negative, but so is boiling tranny oil. You can argue with THEM if you would like, I won't.
We are also discussing the advantages of a wider wheel-stance as well as the advantages of the caliper/rotor space gained when going outboard. Look underneath your car the next time that you go to write a check for a repair bill and you'll see that it is not possible to fit much larger rotors back there without MAJOR mods.
Moving the rear brakes outboard DOES gain room for larger discs and yes, limited by the size of the wheel, but since we are going 325 upfront without a problem, (as much as a 325mm disc or even larger in back is possible - should you want it....) Don't need it back there though - the 288 will be great! We have dumped the 156 rotor option for now.
While mine will not be an IMSA car, it will be a dedicated track car that should run around 150mph at the end of PIR (My fairly stock Verde hits 133 to 135 before turn 2, so who knows what the 3.7 will do...) Jes' car is more street/track, but he also hates the fade... I drill my brakes so hard sometimes that one time I bent the backing plate off of one of the front pads and it curled the plate back away from the pad surface to where the piston carved a circle into the backing plate! (And the wheel would still not lock up at that speed/nose dive!)
I disagree with your "simple balance bar solution" as the only thing needed Mr. Feet on the ground.... Milano/GTV6 brakes are not worth it when you push for good lap times. Mats seems to like them. I hate them. If my setup is too much, I can just use less modulation force now....
The 2 piston caliper Brembos on a Milano Verde are crap for many of us here... (This must be the reason all of the "school kids here are sitting around" (not just talking about it) but actually spending good money to change them out!?
At one thrid the price of Brembo, it's worth trying.
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Full-Race 3.7 Litre 24v Milano; Street/Track 3.0 Litre 24v Milano Verde; 2.0 TS '73 GTV; 6-speed 3.45 litre 24v Street 164 LS/Super; '06 Scion XB - Runs! | |
