Alfa 75 vs BMW M3(E30) and the Lancia Delta Integrale

[75evo]

I never knew the 75s were beating BMWs on the track. I thought it was the GTV6 that was doing relatively well on the track. If we're talking about racing heritage, it is the GTV6, 155 and 156, to my knowledge were more successful.

The 75 wasn't even close to being successful in the European Touring Car series. There might have been a few teams like the 75 3.0 V6 (Villamil, Perez-Sala) which won the Spanish and the EVO in the Italian series. The 75 Turbo however was not a track success as far as the ETCC was concerned, in fact it pulled out in 1988 due to rules which would make it uncompetitive.

As far as I can remember the Alfa sedans which were track successes were the 155 GTA, 2.0 in various series, V6Ti, 156 Superturissmo and WTCC. All FWD cars.

[Timo]

Here are a couple of examples of road going Integrales:

[BigSwede]

Quote:

As a result of this Scandinavian input, both the Saab-Lancia 600 and the Lancia Delta had better resistance to rust than most Italian cars and were better suited to a cold climate. The Lancia Delta earned the European Car of the Year Award in 1980.

[Timo]

To answer my own question I found an on-line record of the 75's competition results see the attached link:

http://www.alfa75.info/id350.htm

Also attached are some pics of some versions of the 75:

All of text in quotes and the photos below were pulled off of www.Alfa75.info/ and accompanies the last three photos of that beautiful "hot rod" 75!


" Hello Rames, I promised to send you some fotos when I had finished the car and its completed and ready for test on trakcs this summer.
I have decreased the rpm down to 10000 rpm. Engine are tested in a dyno bench and pull 385 BHP, 280 Nm on 10000 rpm.
Running on racefuel 116 octane. Max rpm 14500 but I didnt dear to try due to high service cost if something wrong should
happen. The sound from this engine will give you goose skin the ekhaust system is 2 straight 2,5" pipes who ends 2 carbon
silencers from a Ducati 996. The car will come out in a lot of magazines tjis summer and on a DVD from Gatebil.no"

Caption for the last three pics at the bottom: "Alfacorse 155 2.5 V6 DTM Engine fitted in an Alfa75 [former 1.8 IE Turbo] Evo Competition Bella macchina from: Øyvind Nikolaisen. [N] AR75R202"

It seems this heavily modified 75 can keep up with modern traffic!

[Potenziato]

I pretty much agree with 75 Evo's review of the E30 M3. Bone stock the E30 is a lot faster and better handling than the Verde. Remember even the USA E30 M3 weighs only about 2750 lbs with air. That's super light compared to a Verde or just about any modern car.

The engine is a little rough but it comes on very strong. The strong point of the E30 is the handling and feedback not the power by contemporary standards. It also hand wonderfully tactile controls. Of course for touring around town, the Verde would do better. I really don't think the V6 Alfa's are comparable to the M3. They were a better match capabilty wise to the 325is. Remember the M3 cost $34000 usd back in 1988. It was over $10,000 more than a Verde. That was mucho deniro back than.

The US M3's suck compared to the Euro Sport Evo's with the dog leg transmission, 2.5 engine, etc. Ever see all the crazy seals they put on the hood and elsewhere to reduce drag? I wouldn't mind seeing a diamond black metallic E30 M3 parked in my driveway.

[BigSwede]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Potenziato I wouldn't mind seeing a diamond black metallic E30 M3 parked in my driveway.

[Bricol]

At last - after a year or two of lurking, a thread I can comment on.

I owned a 1987 75 2.0 TS in the obiligatory red for 3 years from about 1994 - great fun, fast, comfortable, loads of room inside and for luggage - and absolutely useless in snow/ice. Good car, reliable and reasonable fun.

I sold it not long after buying a 1989 Lancia Delta HF integrale 16V (note the spelling, and the upper case - or not). 4 cyl, 16V, turbo-charged, 5 spd - I ran that for 8 yrs, 100,000 miles, two head gaskets (one was only an oil leak), one gearbox (bust tooth on 1st) and one rear bumper. Smaller, did around 20 mpg (and at $8 a gallon . . .) if driven carefully - normally 18mpg but I did get around 8mpg when time trialling it. Tiny luggage area. And absolutely useless on snow - most scary car I have ever driven on snow. It's weight and wide tyres meant it simply slid. Put winter tyres on it and it was the best thing on the snowy roads - brilliant. On normal tyres and non-snowy roads - in the wet, in the dry, greasy roads, bumpy roads, twisty narrow British back roads, etc etc - absolutely fantastic. Nothing to beat it point to point - fantastic grip, acceleration, handling, feeling from the steering, the suspension, everywhere. The car has soul! When you are driving one hard, flowing with the road, you don't care it's small, most modern cars would be faster in a straight line, ride better etc - it is fantastic fun.

After 8yrs of ownership, I could still park it at work, walk away and HAVE to look back at it.

I replaced it after those 100,000 miles 2 yrs ago with . . . a 1992 Lancia Delta integrale Evo (which became Evo 1 when they released the Evo 2) - same engine as above, but theoretically 10bhp more. Compared to my old 16V it is slower (the 16V had some engine work done on the first head gasket change and was chipped by a well respected UK specialist - the late, much missed, Barry Waterhouse of Evo Engineering in London - yes, I took my car 250 mile south for servicing). Currently I only had a stainless exhaust fitted to it, retro-fitted an ABS system (the 16V had it standard, this Evo didn't - and for everyday driving, I want it!).

Used everyday - it has a tow bar - most amusing to blow other people away towing a caravan or a car trailer.

So, comparing the two -

I'd bet the 75 would be faster off the line - unless you have no mechanical sympathy and loads of money, then destroying clutches for fun in the integrale (too much grip from the 4WD) would get you in-front.

Freeway driving - the 75 - more comfortable, more economical. But for sheer oomph in the back when you floor it to pull away from that tailgator . . the integrale - stuff the fuel consumption!

Back roads - the integrale each and every time.

Getting looks from those in the know - the integrale every time.

Respect from officers of the law just doing their job and who know a little about cars - the integrale every time. Including the one in the little Vauxhall Astra who couldn't keep up on the twisties ;-)

Getting owners of 15 yrs younger Japanese supercars (scooby/mitsi etc) to think they have to prove their newer car is better/faster - which it ought to be or someones been doing something wrong for 15yrs - and do I care? Who's really having more fun?

Just for sheer driving enjoyment - the integrale each and . . . I think you get the picture. Can you tell I like integrales?

However, one big problem with integrales. Stress cracks. Taking a 1970's shopping car with oringally 55bhp FWD and sticking 4WD under it and cramming a 2ltr turbo charged engine in the front and something has to give - the shell flexes and there have been a few proud owners I have upset by showing them the cracks. Get them fixed and reinforced and you're good to go again. Leave them and you are driving a jelly on wheels and not getting the full effect. Very susceptable to tracking changes to - and damaged roads will damage the tracking, leading to very short tyre life.

Having worked in the USA for quite some time, I reckon the average US freeway with it's enormous expansion joints and damage would ruin an integrale in weeks. But I would love to bring one over and have some fun with that cheap gasoline!

Yes, even fairly basic modern cars will set faster track times - in-fact I think 5th Gear (UK TV programme) set a faster time with a panel van! But I don't care - I'm having too much fun.


Next time, I'll post a proper answer with more detail ;-)

Bri

[Nipper]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigSwede Now that is just hilarious! The "600" rusted so fast the Opels even looked like they were rust free in comparison.