05-17-2007, 08:17 PM
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I like this idea. I'm a big fan of the Milano/75 and would love to take part in this series should we start it somehow.
But the reference of a $10K race car being on the "high side" is worrisome. Racing ain't cheap. Just because we can get junker Milanos for free or close to free doesn't make its components/spares free. Safety equipment, for example, properly installed using quality material will cost real money but it's a one-time cost.
As some folks have already pointed out, the challenge would be to keep costs relatively low on an ongoing basis (i.e. from race to race). If the mods are kept to a minimum by definition, there is a better chance of achieving that! Having standardized tires, shocks, springs, etc. are all steps in the right direction. This means parts can be swapped between one car and another right in the pits without causing handicaps to happen.
The Spec Miata friends I have say, that is one cool thing about their series. The goal is to get as many people out on the field as possible so lots of parts trading happen on any given weekend. We can't do that as readily if we allowed too many high-dollar or "exotic" mods.
The other thing we should consider is to stop rule creep because you want new people to join in. If the barrier to entry keeps creeping up, it will kill the series because those that want to join it later will have to spend much more up front.
Last edited by nizam; 05-17-2007 at 08:19 PM.
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05-18-2007, 05:36 AM
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Carter makes some good points.
I like that the cage and safety standards would be (for us, 'were' for SpecE30) sorted by the sanctioning body. I'm guessing this means that you either buy from an appointed supplier or visit certified builders who handle the install?
I think the "tinkerer" concept is going to be a sticky spot for a lot of people. It might be a stereotype of Italian car owners, but I do think a healthy percentage of the people here who would be specifically interested in building an Italian racing car are naturally the tinkering type. I believe this is what's leading to our desire to basically allow "rules creep". However, if examples from the past show that this will quickly kill a series, maybe we should re-evaluate.
Nizam, I know I've been one of the cheaper voices on this thread so I'll clarify my thoughts on the money aspects: I'm not trying to say that $10k is too high, my main arguement is that we should be making every effort to take the least expensive route towards our goal. If that ends up being $10k, so be it. But I got the feeling that as we were all getting excited about this idea, that we were maybe loosing sight of "budget". Also, judging from examples of cars built for other Spec series, $10k or below is completely attainable. If Carter can run a SpecE30 for $6500 and be competitive, we should be able to make a Transaxle Spec for about the same coinage....no?
In any case, I completely agree with you that once the 'build' costs are swallowed the real challenge of making it relatively affordable to compete is going to be something to focus on. And that mods should be minimized and standardized. I think Carter explained this pretty well by saying (I'm paraphrasing) basically "what's the point?". If you make headers 'open', everyone will have headers and all the cars will still be equal. The only thing you've done, is make the Spec more expensive for a newbie to join.
Does anyone know how to draw all this up in order to begin the move towards sanctioning? If we hammer out all the details, do we draw up a sort of 'business case' and present it to NASA, SCCA or a vintage racing org? Do we all have to get prettied up and slick-talk our way through the door? 
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05-18-2007, 08:27 AM
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Good points about "rule creep" and the price of entry for new participants getting higher and higher as you grow rules for a series such as this...
At the same time; people will do what they can afford as the rules grow, but the cars remain VERY close - these are SMALL changes - we are not talking about huge leaps in the rules - small things as you go along. I am talking about say 8,500 to 10K to start and maybe 5-7K worth of rule-growth over say 2-3 years - making the price of entry maybe 15K to 18K - three years down the line! (Still, pure penance to go racing if you ask me...)
The TA cars are a bit different from the E30s in that there are small additions that can be made, where you still retain stock mounting points, but which provide BIG bang for the buck. Alternatively make those options open NOW and give people time to grow to them! I for one wouldn't want to run a stock-stock suspension for example. I can live with fully reconditioned stock brakes, open pads and vented rears (with the option of the floating hat G2/GD vented rears or the SZ rears), but pretty much stock-stock brakes.
Touching mirrors to the pavement is not my cup of tea though - there has to be some level of suspension mods allowed then at the start! Perhaps the options of Koni/Billstein/RSR shocks, Shankle/RSR front anti-roll bars (limited to say 28mm or 30mm) and IAP/Shankle/RSR rear springs at least. (Point is to get the roll out of the cars and to be able to corner-balance them a bit from the start!)
We seem to have no shortage on folks who want to help set the rules. That's great! One easy way to solidify opinions would be to put together 5 members WHO HAVE TO COMMIT TO BUILD A CAR AND COMPETE IN THE SERIES THEMSELVES, in order to join the rule-setting governing body. 
Stepping away from the rules-aspect a bit here - 3 questions;
1) Who would be interested in participating in the leg-work to petition various sanctioning bodies for inclusion of the series?
2) Who would be interested in building a car and help setting the rules?
3) How do you deal with the large geographic nature of this BB (I didn't keep count, but I am also assuming that right now in this thread we have folks form all over the world replying - I didn't look - )
As far as the States; do you do an East Coast series and a West Coast series? Or, do 5 members in each area - say PNW, SoCal and the Bay area - get together and design 5 local efforts for the West Coast - all with the same nation-wide rules matching those in a Southern "conference" and an East Coast conference...?
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Full-Race 3.7 Litre 24v Milano; Street/Track 3.0 Litre 24v Milano Verde; 2.0 TS '73 GTV; 6-speed 3.45 litre 24v Street 164 LS/Super; '06 Scion XB - Runs!
Last edited by junglejustice; 05-18-2007 at 08:33 AM.
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05-18-2007, 08:44 AM
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Just for my clarification: Are we talking a 75 spec series? Or, a 116 2.5 V6 spec series? I think a combined gtv6 and 75 series will have more participants, and I think they can compete on equal terms. Although I'd love a pure 75 series I think you may have trouble finding enough participants. Including the gtv6 will help on that front.
As to who is interested. Well I am, but I'm not sure I can justify yet another race car project in the garage. Though, I have the perfect donor car/shell sitting in my driveway as we "speak" 
Jes
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05-18-2007, 10:00 AM
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 Quote:
Originally Posted by junglejustice
Good points about "rule creep" and the price of entry for new participants getting higher and higher as you grow rules for a series such as this...
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 . As long as you keep the rule creep cost to around 2-3% per year (the rate of inflation), I think it would be reasonable.
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Originally Posted by junglejustice
Touching mirrors to the pavement is not my cup of tea though - there has to be some level of suspension mods allowed then at the start! Perhaps the options of Koni/Billstein/RSR shocks, Shankle/RSR front anti-roll bars (limited to say 28mm or 30mm) and IAP/Shankle/RSR rear springs at least. (Point is to get the roll out of the cars and to be able to corner-balance them a bit from the start!)
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Well, that wouldn't be bad I guess but you should really standardize to a either torsion bars or RSR coilovers. Those are two very different approaches to reducing roll -- one more expensive than the other. I do see the benefit of the coilovers due to the ability to corner-balance the cars easily. Teams or racers that understand this adjustability will have an advantage over most of the field.
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Originally Posted by Echo Leader
If Carter can run a SpecE30 for $6500 and be competitive, we should be able to make a Transaxle Spec for about the same coinage....no?
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Hmm, I don't doubt Carter has a competitive $6500 SpecE30, but if I were to start today ... the cheapest E30 on Craigslist in my area (that's a relevant metric .. everyone is in a different area with different fair market value of used cars) is $2,200. That's a third of the $6500 already. On paper, prep work never seems expensive but in real life, it always exceeds original estimates! I think those that do a lot of the work themselves could come in cheaper, certainly. But those that can drive better than they can wrench will have a bigger bill. I don't think $6500 is unreasonable, perhaps on the "enticing" end of the reality scale ... that's all.
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05-18-2007, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by junglejustice
Stepping away from the rules-aspect a bit here - 3 questions;
1) Who would be interested in participating in the leg-work to petition various sanctioning bodies for inclusion of the series?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by junglejustice
2) Who would be interested in building a car and help setting the rules?
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Since I'm still building my car, I can see that I'll have to start over. No Milano came with a 24-valve 3.0V6, big brakes and drop spindles 
Quote:
Originally Posted by junglejustice
3) How do you deal with the large geographic nature of this BB (I didn't keep count, but I am also assuming that right now in this thread we have folks form all over the world replying - I didn't look - )
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I suppose we could do three races the first year on the west coast; two in CA, and one in OR/WA? CA is a big state, and if many participants are from SoCal, it would only be fair to have one event at ... say ... Buttonwillow or WSIR. The next one at Thunderhill (Nor Cal), and the other at PIR or SRI. Diesel costs are high, it would cost real money to transport these cars to these events. Having to do it three times a year, along with taking the time off, would be a big obstacle to many folks, but if the series were compelling, we'd do it
I don't know what the Milano scene is for the rest of the country so I can't speak to that.
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05-18-2007, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nizam
I don't know what the Milano scene is for the rest of the country so I can't speak to that.
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edit: The good thing is because of rust, and a lot of cars going to the crusher, I have a pretty complete spares package.
Last edited by Hit an Apex; 05-18-2007 at 11:33 AM.
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05-18-2007, 11:37 AM
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Aside from the fact that I would want to build a GTV6, I agree with Jes that opening it to any 116 chassis would give us a bigger 'customer base'.
So if it's to be a 116 2.5L series, I'd be interested in building a car. So that makes a grand total of 2 east coasters so far.....
Nizam, you're probably right, concerning the costs. Though if Carter was able to start with a $2200(ish) car and go racing for $6500 it would be fantastic! Plus it means that for us Alfa folk who can find a runner for between $800 and $1200.....our final price should be comensurately lower!
Sidebar: Nizam, you mind if I PM you some questions about the drop spindle? The concept is on my mind lately as I think I'm interested in addressing some of the natural limitations in the OEM suspension geometry before I start to buy any expensive 'go-fast' suspension bits...
BTW, to all on this thread, this has been a really cool discussion so far, with lots of good ideas and thoughful commentary! Quite enjoyable!
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05-18-2007, 11:53 AM
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Let me add I think the RSR kit would be a bad idea for the series as far as cost containment goes. It's pricey!
Furthermore, if we are going to a spec suspension, shouldn't we get a "deal" from RSR? Or let other manufacturers compete for the spec suspension contract?
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05-18-2007, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hit an Apex
Let me add I think the RSR kit would be a bad idea for the series as far as cost containment goes. It's pricey!
Furthermore, if we are going to a spec suspension, shouldn't we get a "deal" from RSR? Or let other manufacturers compete for the spec suspension contract?
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Jes
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87 Milano 3.0 Motronic - budget race car - Roxanne
87 Milano 3.7 24v - race car
(Repeating what I suggest or do is at your own risk - be critical)
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05-18-2007, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AR4me
You need the 4 corners and the 30 mm front swaybar. How much is that? $2200? Leave the stock torsion bars, rear sway bar, and watts linkage. Is that so terrible for transforming the car into a nice handling car on the track? Interestingly, most objection to the RSR is from people who have never tried it. I don't recall anyone with RSR experience speaking against it. It is natural to doubt something you haven't tried, but I think it says a lot that people who have tried it is willing to cough up the $$$ for yet another set. Thinking of contracts is dreaming IMHO, but maybe Ron is willing to sell kits specifically for Spec 75 cars with a discount. But I can imagine that abuse of such goodwill could be an issue.
Jes
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I am objecting to it because with an enlarged sway bar and konis/springs you have a fairly nice handling car.
Someone needs to make a firm decision between "low budget" and "not-so-low budget".
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05-18-2007, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hit an Apex
Of course no one has spoken against the RS System... $2200! I would force myself to be happy with it
I am objecting to it because with an enlarged sway bar and konis/springs you have a fairly nice handling car.
Someone needs to make a firm decision between "low budget" and "not-so-low budget". |
Look carefully, and you'll notice that I only listed parts of the RSR suspension (what I consider essential).
I don't think anyone should be forced to run RSR - lets just specify the allowed options, and all should be happy If you don't think RSR gives you much then you would just run some Konis and go racing.
So, what is low-budget racing to you? $2k, $3k, $5k?
Jes
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87 Milano Verde - daily driver - Juliet
87 Milano 3.0 Motronic - budget race car - Roxanne
87 Milano 3.7 24v - race car
(Repeating what I suggest or do is at your own risk - be critical)
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